Helleberg questions Bookmark and Share

The bulk of the musical talk

Moderator: Uber Moderators

Helleberg questions

Postby ppalan » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:20 pm

I have a Helleberg 7B which doesn't seem to work well for me but I also have a Kellyberg which, although I don't like it a lot, works better than the 7B on both my Yamaha 321 Eb and my Miraphone 186 CC. I've been told that the Kellybergs are like the Helleberg 120 but on the Kelly site they say their stainless Kellyberg is "their own design". So, here's my question...What is the difference between the Helleberg 7B and the 120 (eg as sold at Dillon's)? :?
Pete
ps I tried a search but got a gajillion hits about Hellebergs after reading a bunch, I wasn't finding an answer.
ppalan
Mirafone186 CC 4v
Yamaha Eb 321
ancient Bavarian Eb-helicon 3v
Sellmansberger Solo
Sellmansberger Symphony
User avatar
ppalan
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:40 pm
Location: Montgomery County, PA

Re: Helleberg questions

Postby Rob » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:38 pm

You'll likely get lots of replies and someone will point you to the right place. I haven't played the Kellyberg, I believe I've seen them, and they look like the 120 Conn. The rim on the 7B is quite a bit bigger if I'm not mistaken, maybe with even a more rounded edge. I believe the 120 is a bigger(volume/depth) mouthpiece as well. One quick place I'll point you, that I haven't used but have considered as they offer a trial return is

http://www.mouthpieceexpress.com/catalo ... s_id=17856

keeping in mind I have no affiliation. I have both of these mouthpieces though and would agree that they are quite a bit different so if you don't like the 7B, the 120 is not similar. There are some specs listed on this mouthpiece on mouthpiecexpress, but there are also other sites, that elude my memory and the bookmarks on this computer I'm on at the moment, that will list all the pertinent details which might help you to figure it out.

Perhaps the best thing to do would be to find someone that has one(likely at least every other tuba player), and try one out, they are not very rare. They also show up on craigslist and I think ebay with some frequency, and are popular with kids that then stop playing and parents have a mouthpiece they dont need.

Good luck,
Rob
Conn 20/21J, 14k Sousa, 1920's Helicon
Holton "Harvey Phillips" TU331BB
Rob
bugler
bugler
 
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:38 pm
Location: Georgia

Re: Helleberg questions

Postby skeath » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:08 pm

August Helleberg was principal tuba with the Sousa Band, and is thought to be the designer of the funnel-shaped mouthpiece that bears his name. That said, it seems that everyone who makes a "Helleberg" mouthpiece tries to improve it.

I first started playing a Conn Helleberg in 1971. At that time Conn made 2 versions: the 7B (quite small), and one that was quite large, but unmarked. Whether either one of these represents the original August Helleberg design is open to debate, but the larger "Standard" size became very popular during that decade, and became the model to copy. Both Schilke and Walter Sear soon came out with their own versions, all slightly different. I personally never liked them (rim either too rounded or too wide), but many people did.

Most makers now have a model called "Helleberg"; I have tried most of them, with mixed results. I like a seriously narrow, flat rim (very flat), and most of these fail that test. I have a Kellyberg, but have hardly played it. It is certainly bigger than a 7B, but I can't say how much. The only modern Helleberg that meets my standard is the Sidey SSH, which is a spectacularly accurate copy of a 1971 Conn Standard. However, I actually found my ideal mouthpiece (for my horn) by modifying a Laskey 30H. The Laskey is made by the original designer of the Schilke II. It originally failed my test, but after 3 modifications (and 2 ruined mouthpieces), I found the fix that I like.

Back to the OP's original question: the biggest difference you are feeling between the 7B and the Kellyberg is the cup size. If your Kellyberg is plastic, you may not like the sound, which is influenced by the resonance chamber.
If it is not plastic, the issue could be the contour of the rim.

For those of us who like the Helleberg design, the rim width and contour are more critical than for those people who prefer a wider or more rounded rim, so you have to take that into consideration.

Buy 3 or 4 mouthpieces, and sell the ones you don't like as well. As a starting point, you could try the Kelleyberg, Sidey SSH, and Laskey 30H. They are all similar, yet slightly different.


SK
Sandy Keathley, DMA
http://www.festivalbrassofdallas.com
Yamaha YFB-822S F
Gnagey Holton/King CC
Unmarked Rotary Helicon in F
Gone but not forgotten: Alexander 163 CC 5V, Mirafone 186-5U CC, Nirschl 5/4 CC
User avatar
skeath
bugler
bugler
 
Posts: 235
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:11 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: Helleberg questions

Postby sailn2ba » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:29 pm

I used (and still have) an unmarked Conn Helleberg for years. It displaced all others I tried, although I could comfortably use a Bach 18. Recently, when I borrowed a horn, it had a Helleberg 7B with it, and that didn't work at all for me. Fortunately, I had brought my (120?) along. I also have a Kellyberg that I like for outside in cold weather. . . feels a lot like the Conn for sound and attack, but different feedback.
A year or so ago I got a horn with a larger Euro leadpipe and am now using a Laskey 30H . . . had a seamless transition.
In any case, the 7B is very different from the (120??), and I personally prefer the (120?).
sailn2ba
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:53 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Helleberg questions

Postby Donn » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:52 pm

My favorite Tubenet reference thread on the Helleberg line (including the 7B), is The Conn Helleberg. There's another thread back there somewhere with some nice photos of the same model mouthpiece, manufactured a few years apart with visibly different rim profiles.

As noted above, the "Helleberg" name is widely used and abused. The Kellyberg is a clone like several others, all fairly similar - but a little difference in the throat or something could make a giant difference in how it plays.
User avatar
Donn
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 2984
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:58 pm
Location: Seattle, ☯

Re: Helleberg questions

Postby basspiper » Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:35 pm

I haven't tried taking any measurements, but I do have a Helleberg 7B, 120 and a plastic Kellyberg. Of the three, I find the Kellyberg to be (slightly) the largest, and the 7B the smallest. I like the Kellyberg best, but don't like it all that much. It is much better than nothing, so makes a good spare. I use a Stofer Geib most of the time.

I play an older 186 and I have a really hard time controlling its bark with the 120. It's easily the worst mp I have in that respect. Every note barks, except the ones that are stuffy. The horn is much tamer with the Kellyberg--for me. The Kellyberg--to me--feels a bit more open-throated, takes a bit more air, and is very slightly larger on my face than the 120. The 7B is a size or two smaller than the 120 and I would guess that for many players it's a better bass tuba mouthpiece than contrabass.

On the other hand, I like the "feel" of the 120, so I will probably keep it in the hope that I will eventually own a tuba it works with.

Dave
User avatar
basspiper
bugler
bugler
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 3:47 pm
Location: Mid-MO

Re: Helleberg questions

Postby Doug Elliott » Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:22 pm

By my measurements, from the mouthpieces in my collection:

Conn Helleberg 7B is 1.26" inside with a slightly rounded narrow rim and a cup equivalent to my P cup.

Conn Hellegerg is 1.30" inside with a totally flat narrow rim and a cup equivalent to my R cup.

That's quite a bit of difference between them.
User avatar
Doug Elliott
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 311
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:59 pm

Re: Helleberg questions

Postby hrender » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:19 am

For whatever it's worth, I've owned and tried the Kellyberg and the two Conns plus various other makers Helleberg versions (RM 1, Wick 1 & 2, Mike Finn 3, couple of Schilkes, the R&S SHII Heavyweight) none of which worked that well for me. I've settled on using a Deck 2 which I like a lot, which just goes to show that the Helleberg variations are different enough that it's worth trying several before discarding the whole class of Helleberg mouthpieces. The popular ones are the Schilke SHII, the Laskey 30H and a couple of the Perantucci (I think the PT-50 is the most popular of their Hellebergs). If you wait and buy used (which is mostly what I do) you can get them relatively cheaply. If you want to do this sooner, I'd suggest the Deck 1 or 2 (available for a limited time from Houser), the Mike Finn H, the Dillon CB-1 or the Houser MK 7, all of which I've heard very good things about and all of which should have good resale value.
hal.
User avatar
hrender
5 valves
5 valves
 
Posts: 1013
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:18 pm
Location: Fruited Plains

Re: Helleberg questions

Postby windshieldbug » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:56 am

Doug Elliott wrote:from the mouthpieces in my collection


So is the closest one you make an "Elliberg"? :wink:
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
User avatar
windshieldbug
pro musician
pro musician
 
Posts: 10062
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:41 pm
Location: 8vb

Re: Helleberg questions

Postby Doug Elliott » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:43 pm

Hmmm...
Would you like to try it and see?
User avatar
Doug Elliott
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 311
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:59 pm

Re: Helleberg questions

Postby windshieldbug » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:04 pm

Doug Elliott wrote:Hmmm...
Would you like to try it and see?


I'm good now, thanks, but if I was looking for something you'd be the first place I'd go :D
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
User avatar
windshieldbug
pro musician
pro musician
 
Posts: 10062
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:41 pm
Location: 8vb

Re: Helleberg questions

Postby Alex C » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:36 pm

Helleberg made a different mouthpiece for every horn. The Conn Helleberg from the 1930's was simply a copy of one version of his mouthpieces. I have a Buescher Helleberg and another Helleberg with no manufacturer printed. In other words, there is no one "official" Helleberg mouthpiece.

It is concievable that the unmarked Conn Helleberg from the 60's is a copy of some Helleberg mouthpiece. The Helleberg 7B was reputed to have the same cup as the Conn 2 which was reputed to have the same cup as the 1930's Conn Helleberg.

People who have worked with Conn over the years have passed this information on to me, I believe it to be true.
City Intonation Inspector - Dallas Texas
"Holding the Bordognian Fabric of the Universe together through better pitch, one note at a time."

Practicing results in increased atmospheric CO2 thus causing global warming.
User avatar
Alex C
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 2049
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:34 am
Location: Cybertexas

Next

Return to TubeNet

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], menroth and 13 guests