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I'm sure this ground has been covered before, but are there any obvious disadvantages to using a tuba stand for normal playing? Do people ever use straps or harnesses while sitting?

I've found that the "perfect" position for me is to have the horn on my knees, tilted left a little less than 45 degrees. My airflow and mouthpiece position - and definitely sound - just feel noticeably better. But I have to use my left hand to hold the tuba in position and am thus not free to comfortably operate the first valve slide, which I definitely have to pull out for Fs not to be super-sharp!

Until recently, my best solution was to roll up a towel and put it on the chair between my legs with the tuba sitting on it but now that I've found the better sound (with the uncomfortable position), I'm torn.

Miraphone 188 5 valve rotary, me = 5'7"

Thoughts?

For me, there are only two obvious disadvantages to using a stand:

-- You have to carry it around with you all the time.
-- If you ever forget/don't have it/it breaks on you, it can be really uncomfortable to adjust.

I guess that's all the same problem. And if you're in school, somewhere you can drive around/leave it in your car, etc., maybe a non-issue.

But for me, that was a breaking point for my Marzan. A 1-hour commute on a train/walking with a large tuba, a music stand, and a tuba stand was just too much "stuff" to get around with.

Ironically, I switched to a Mirafone 188 to shed the weight and have something easy to hold. Excellent tuba, BTW!

bort wrote:For me, there are only two obvious disadvantages to using a stand:

-- You have to carry it around with you all the time.
-- If you ever forget/don't have it/it breaks on you, it can be really uncomfortable to adjust.

I also think these are the only real issues. Also, sometimes it takes me an extra second or two to "set" my tuba on the stand, so if you're not paying attention you could potentially drop your tuba between your legs and hurt the tuba and yourself.

I carry my stand in the bell of my Holton. The only disadvantage, therefore, is extra weight and one more piece of stuff to mess with on stage.

But it's worth it.

Any muscles we use to prop up the instrument create tension we have to overcome when we breathe and play. That tension has an effect beyond constricting our breathing. It also may translate to tension in our embouchure where we don't want it. Muscular tension has a tendency to spread without our realizing it.

I don't use a stand with my F tuba, because it is so light I can manage it without enough tension to cause problems. And often I'm playing my F with music that makes me want to move around a bit. Not so my Bb tubas, which have to rest on a chair if I don't use a stand. Slipping off the corner of a chair frightens me, which is a far greater possibility in my experience than missing the stand, so I apply extra tension to prevent it. Switching to the use of a stand was a revelation.

I don't use straps while seated, but I do use a harness when I'm playing while standing. Again, the purpose of that is to reduce tension.

Rick "tension is the enemy" Denney

I´m tall enough to comfortably play with a tuba in my lap / resting on one thigh. No contact to chairs or stands.
I like to use a leather strap, though, to relieve my left hand from duties and to add a feeling of safety.
Plus, I can just let the horn fall into the strap, leaving both hands free for other activities such as taking notes, flipping pages and the likes.
I do own a K&M playing stand (the tall kind, not for sitting). Didn´t consider it practical, so it´s collecting dust.
The small Bb horn gets to be played on standing gigs.

Ideally speaking, a tuba would sit on a chair which fits both of you, the bell points straight up, the room/hall acoustics love this position, your hand goes straight to the valves without any weird bends and without your elbow sticking out in the air and the mpc goes perfectly to your mouth. It ain't gonna happen!

OK, it might. It could. But for now you need to find that special balance which allows you to play with a minimum of tension, ride your 1st slide and position your bell properly. A playing stand might be a perfect tool for you to find a better position. Books can work as well. Its a little better than a towel I think.

Ergonomics. The tuba may not be one of the best designed music instruments. The more your horn leans to one side the more the tensed muscles get in the way of playing. Its a give and take thing. And enough of us out there have backed out of buying a wonderful tuba (or purchased it and later sold it) because it just didn't fit the body. A stand can help with a difficult horn. Its a gamble. One worth taking if you ask me.

Often I use it for studying but not for gigs. Its great as protection against my B&S F (just never got around to having the ball crusher removed). My Conn monster sits nicely on a flat bottom chair (after having leadpipe surgery). Generally you never know at a gig what kind of chair you'll wind up with. I have a choice; bring my chair, bring a stand or suffer. I know enough players that bring a chair. I bring a stand or suffer, depending upon my mood.

Its not about schlepping. I'm a tuba player, I'm already schlepping. Walking back to the car won't kill me. I usually have to anyway.

For my Conn 36J I usually bring an old fashioned holding stand (as apposed to a playing stand). Its got a bell front so its handy for when I don't play. I even used this stand on occasions during real long rehearsals. Ever had muscle aches the day after a loooong rehearsal from picking up and putting down your horn 100x? I have. With is safer, without is nicer. Which reminds me of a joke about the similarity between drummers and condoms....
-Pat

Choice C:
Seat the horn on the chair between your legs, and have the leadpipe raised or lowered (unless you are lucky enough that it is the right position.)

pjv wrote:Ideally speaking, a tuba would sit on a chair which fits both of you, the bell points straight up, the room/hall acoustics love this position...

I may be old and stupid, but I respectfully disagree with this statement. I've always thought the easiest way to hold the tuba was resting on the legs: you don't have to depend on the right kind of chair, props, books, stands, or any other device. How far apart your legs are spread gives you a good 3-4 inches of adjustability in mouthpiece height, more than enough for most normal-sized folks. The only rare exception I can think of is someone of exceptional height (imagine a 6-foot plus player trying to play a euphonium while seated but with the horn on his lap).

With the majority of the weight of the tuba supported by the legs, the left hand is free to manipulate slides (and other items) relatively free of the dreaded TENSION.

And I believe your bell direction statement is a non-started: we can agree the general direction of tuba bells is "up", and even 45 degrees either direction wouldn't adversely affect the sound out in the hall. On some stages playing straight up means disappearing into a vast cavern of lights and catwalks: no sound gets out at all.

And didn't you later mention you sometimes played on a bell-front instrument?!

Karl "slightly more crotchety than usual tonight" H.

"Muscular tension has a tendency to spread without our realizing it."

The leg muscles are connected to the stomach muscles and we use them when we play.

Not all tubas fit on ones lap. Both my Conn's don't, not without pushing the mpc up on my forehead. I just tried a Kanstul F and I had to crouch over it in order to play it. A low chair made it easier, a higher chair impossible.

"On some stages playing straight up means disappearing into a vast cavern of lights and catwalks: no sound gets out at all."

So the direction of the bell IS important. And indeed, in small venues a bell pointing straight up can be a disaster. Its one of the reasons I own a front-bell, so I can choose the best place to direct my sound.

Bottom-line; different strokes for different folks. A friend of mine is built like an ox and can stand playing tuba without a strap with as much ease as he does sitting. (At least it sounds that way.) I prefer my tuba on the chair in balance with itself so I don't have to hold up at all.

Cheers, Pat

I personally have found if to use a stand, or not a lot to do with the tuba being played. I never used a stand playing a Besson 981 Eb and do not with the Wessex Eb (JB 700) - but found a stands use essential playing a MW 2040/5. That has no thumb ring and I found I could not hold it steady without a stand. The one occasion I tried playing without it slipped on my legs and bashed me on the head with its bell - lucky neither of us were damaged, although it gave the rest of the quintet a good laugh.

I always use a stand with Neptune, or PT-15 for not only comfort, but because I feel they play better on stand - resonate better. I used the Tubassist for years, but now mostly use a Baltimore stand, but occasionally still pull out the Tubassist which is screwed onto folding chair if the chairs supplied are unsuitable - I hate those moulded plastic chairs.

Something like a Miraphone 186 (or JB 410 in my case) I have found can be played quite well with or without stand - so it depends a lot on the gig.

One disadvantage I have found with stand not mentioned above is that it prevents you moving the tuba to aid reading the music as you go down the page. In a band in which I play they insist on all the music stands being even height to look good, but that is often lower than I like and with the Neptune on stand I have found great difficulty on occasion in reading the bottom line of music (too low). However now the conductor has requested me to play the JB700 Eb all the time (he prefers the sound), that is no longer a problem.

I started with a Conn 20J resting on my lap. Sometimes my leg fell asleep. It was ok.

Earlier this year I got a Mirafone 186. I am 6'3" and I could not put it and me on the chair. It was awkward. I found a kids drum throne top and stuck it on my trombone stand. It rocks. I would not even consider playing it without the stand. Granted I only play in a community band but for the first time ever I am not holding up the horn.

Spike Jones had a point, especially about the spike. Please don’t forget your hard-toed shoes.

Tubas come in many different sizes, and so do people. There is no solution that will be best for everyone, but generally I find less need for a stand with smaller tubas. I have no need for a stand when playing the little 182, I can play quite comfortably with no stand when using the 2250, but I find it's much easier to use a stand with a big tuba. I can play the 6450 without one, but it's easier to have a stand take the weight - and it gives me much more flexibility and relaxation while playing.

There are different types of stand too. I found the standard cradle top on the K&M / Baltimore Brass stand cumbersome and it limited my ability to move with the tuba. I didn't like mucking around getting the tuba at the right angle before putting it in the cradle, so I replaced the top with an 8" drummer's practice pad. The rubber gives enough grip to prevent the tuba slipping, while the contact point between tuba and stand is very small. When picking up the tuba it's just as easy as putting the tuba on my lap, and I think the resonance is slightly better too. I remember hearing a demonstration (by Gene Pokorny?) of the difference in sound with the tuba in his lap vs on a stand - of course they both sounded great, but there was a bit more resonance when he used the stand.

Earlier this year there was a few weeks in the orchestra where repertoire meant that I was only using the Willson 3400 that I used to have. I have always used the stand for the 6450, but at the time I thought I didn't need to worry about it for the 3400. The 3400 is about the side of a small C tuba, with a tallish bell, and like all Willson's is heavy. After a few weeks I developed some muscle tightness/pain between my right shoulder and spine. While there were other contributing factors (poor posture while spending too long at the computer ) I'm certain that the weight and balance of that tuba meant that I was pulling down with my right hand to keep the tuba balanced and in a reasonable playing position. My posture would have looked OK, but you can't see tension.

It may not have been a problem for me when I was 10 years younger, or if I was only playing for a few hours a week, but these days I like to make things was easy as possible.

In summary: (for larger tubas at least) the only disadvantage in using a stand is having to carry it to the gig. If there are any other negatives it means that you need a different stand.

Wow - thanks for all the great insight! I think I'll have to pick up a stand somewhere or fashion my own just to see. I tried using a strap and, although it solved the angle problem by relieving the pressure on my left hand, it constricted my chest and I could feel it interfering with filling the ol' lungs to capacity.

This must seem kind of ridiculous to some of you, though, with these incredibly big tubas and I'm freaking out about what is surely on the small side of normal. But learning is an adventure.

I guess I'd never really considered the problem of bell direction. It's been a trip moving around "my practice area" [read: the dining room] and aiming at different corners. I feel like that guy in Dune, blowing up rocks with his voice. And I may have just discovered a perfectly sound reason to take down those annoying dishes along the top of the wainscoting... hate to accidentally rattle one or two of them onto the floor.

And Doc - if I ever get around to writing a solo tuba piece, it will be called "Profundity in Rotundity." Brilliant!

Trevor,

With my 188 I use a DEG stand. When it's folded and inserted into the optional black cordure carrying case, it fits right into the 188 bell. Works for me.

I use a stand because:

1) It sounds better
2) Makes the tuba respond better
3) I don't have to hold a 20+lb tuba when I play
4) It sounds better
5) Everytime I've heard somebody use a stand after not using one, they instantly sound better
6) It's easier to play

I'm sold.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46729

bloke wrote:I never can seem to figure out how to use any of these various stands...whether they be the floor models, the tubassist, or what-have-you.

I never seem to be able to find the best place to set them, and I find myself more tired after using any of these stands than after simply resting various tubas on my legs.

I think there is an easy way to find a good position for a "tuba rest".

a) follow bloke's advice and rest the tuba on your legs (plural)

b) "bring the stand to the tuba" - put the stand so it is under the tuba when it is in position a)

c) finally, crank the stand up *just a hair* and RELAX your legs.

You will now have the tuba is exactly the right place, while at the same time allowing you to lower your knees a bit (remember - for best air, your knees should be lower than your hips).

You may also find that you can sit forward on the edge of your chair (instead of pushing all the way back so that your tuba can catch a small piece of the chair). Another Sheridan quip is: chairs in band rooms should NOT have backs - no one's back should be touching the chair at any time while playing.

For the person whose "best position" is to tilt the tuba near 45 degrees - adapting to a stand might be
a bit difficult. The stands work best if the tuba is more-or-less upright with its center of gravity over the stand. I suspect that the tilt is because you can't rest the tuba on your legs and still reach the mouthpiece with the tuba upright. Set the stand lower, open up your legs, and see if a more upright position can be made to work. I have a bit of a "tilt" problem with my Conn 36J - it has more to do with hand position than stand height. But, I'm finding that the Conn is slowly rotating to more and more upright as I get more comfortable with the BIG tuba. With my King 2341, I can literally hold the tuba in place with one finger.
As Rick says : "tension is the enemy". *holding* things requires tension - even if its just "holding still".

Kory101 wrote: 1) It sounds better
2) Makes the tuba respond better
3) I don't have to hold a 20+lb tuba when I play
4) It sounds better
5) Everytime I've heard somebody use a stand after not using one, they instantly sound better
6) It's easier to play

Dodge
Duck
Dip
Dive
....and Dodge

My tuba is so big and heavy that it's extremely uncomfortable to have it in my lap.
I've found a piano-stool very useful, not the round ones but the rectangulary.
Sitting right across the stool with one leg on each side I can place the tuba on the seat between the legs to carry the weight.
The height of the mouthpiece on the tuba, a Kaiser-model, is placed to fit my size when having it in that way.
The stool is also slightly higher than a normal chair, I'm tall, it's more comfortable and gives a more commanding impression, especially with that big tuba.
A piano-stool is available in most cases. If not I use a stand.
I have both Tubassist and the BBC stand but now I prefer the latter one. It's easier to carry.

TexTuba wrote:

Kory101 wrote: 1) It sounds better
2) Makes the tuba respond better
3) I don't have to hold a 20+lb tuba when I play
4) It sounds better
5) Everytime I've heard somebody use a stand after not using one, they instantly sound better
6) It's easier to play

Dodge
Duck
Dip
Dive
....and Dodge

#1 and #2 were the points made by Mr. Pokorny in DC a few years ago. He then demonstrated #5.