TubeNet

I see a lot of 4 valved CC's floating around, and it got me to thinking. Outside of Chuck D in the Canadian Brass, who still regularly uses 4 valved CC's? If one could get a good low F with either 14 (pull) or 124 (push) I would see no reason not to go with only 4 valves - low E will be 234, and you can start using false tones or different alternates below that. Wouldn't a 4 valve also be just slightly more free blowing than its 5 valve counterpart?
--Looking to start an interesting discussion here, not force a viewpoint...

MartyNeilan wrote:Wouldn't a 4 valve also be just slightly more free blowing than its 5 valve counterpart?

That is the reported view of John Fletcher, who apparently preferred his Holton CC-345 to have four valves rather than five.

Personally, I think it depends on the instrument. I find my B&S F tuba, for the music I play on it, needs the fifth valve quite rarely compared to the Yamaha F. If I had a sixth valve, I might follow a very different strategy and use one or the other of the 5th and 6th valve more often than on the Yamaha, just because of where the pitches sit in the lower register.

I've never felt the lack of the fifth valve on my BBb Holton, and often play the low Eb using a false tone. But I think I'd prefer a fifth-valve combination for that note on the Miraphone 186, even though a 186 as old as mine would not have that sort of fifth valve on it.

I've seen a lot of high-end players do just fine on their four-valve Alexanders. But that first slide does get a workout.

Rick "thinking it's an ease-of-use issue with most horns" Denney

Perhaps David Graves will chime in on the subject...

Unless something has changed, he is an big fan of 4 valve CC tubas. He told me of picking 4 valve models over their 5 valve counterparts on multiple occasions.

Last spring I bought a 4 valve 5/4 Rudy Meinl CC from him. It was an amazing big horn...had another long time favorite CC at the time, and when my particular F tuba came up for sale, I sold the Rudy to pay for it.

Wish I still had it sometimes. It was a great playing instrument. I sold it to an occasional tubenet poster in the upper-midwest that sold a 5 valve CC to buy it.

Playing a 4 valve took some getting used to as I had played 5 valve horns for so long, but I don't think having "only" 4 valves would have held me back. There are lots of pros out there that do/have done great things on 4 valve tubas, CC, BBb, Eb, and F.

That said, both of my current tubas (CC and F) are 5 valvers...

Wade, you are more than famous enough
In my original post, I actually never said anything about famous, nor did I insinuate it, it just was perceived that way further down the thread.
I am really surprised at all the posts already - interesting topic. AND, I don't think I have offended anybody. Yet.

FWIW, D Graves' Holton was one of the horns that made me think of this topic, (5/4 Rudys and Cervenys up for sale recently being others)

Don Butterfield felt that 4th valve was a luxury, and had it cut off of more than one of his instruments.

Matt Walters plays on a 4 valve CC horn of his own making. OK he's not a pro player, but he tells me he has never missed having a 5th valve. I have tried that horn and must say that I agree (but what do I know as a rank amateur).

To Rick's comment about his Holton, I think the need for a 5th valve is significantly less on a BBb horn. The low Eb plays in tune on most 4 valve BBbs I have owned with 1+4 and a pull of the first valve slide, or 1+2+4. On my 3 valve Martin the false tone Eb is as strong as the Bb above it. In any case, that low Eb and below are much less common in most of the music I see than the F above it. That F isn't a problem on most 3 valve BBb tubas.

Lets try to keep this steered towards CC tubas, though. I agree that a 5th valve is a lot less necessary for a BBb, and likewise a lot more necessary for an F (low F# and G). Oh, and my big Martin BBb also does just fine with only 3, the false tones on it are so good and the pitch so bendable (and 1st and 2nd slides accessable) I have no idea why you would even need 4 on it!

No Prob, Doc!
BTW, you ARE bringing that platter to my apt on Saturday, aren't you??

Marty "who couldn't live without six valves on his rotary F (at least not live in tune with that horn)" Neilan

No pro I, but how's this for one-upmanship?

Last night, I played a concert on a three-valve CC. A 3-valve compensating Besson. Of course, I scoped this one out carefully--there were no notes below a low Gb, so I was safe. A great little horn (factory original, no Frankentuba this); basically a 3-valve BBb valveset on an Eb-sized instrument. Excellent intonation, but you need to play the A's and E's using 3, not 12.

Linking to another topic recently discussed, the false tones on this horn are so weak as to be non-existent, but the pedal range is very good.
.

I played a 4v piggy for a good amount of time and never really thought I wanted a 5th valve. If I needed a Db above pedal C, and false toned it without a problem. the 1st & 4th slides got a bit of use to get the low stuff in tune, but it was never a big hassle. I only got rid of that horn because of a sweet deal on a 3/4 RM CC... otherwise I'd still have it and be glad to play it!

-ck

Doc wrote:Sorry, Dave, but it's just not the same.

I dunno. When I heard him play the monstrous Vaughan Williams 4th Symphony a couple of years ago, using the Nirschl, he made a big impression on me.

Rick "who has tooted on an Alex for only five minutes, and then with extremely rusty chops, but would like to again someday" Denney

Well, my wet-behind-the-ears input is that I like my 2+3 5th valve on my CC; it gets a lot more use than my flat-whole-step 5th on my F tuba.
It's not stuffy at all when it's used by itself.
MA, who is getting to perform that really cool Frosty arrangement with the big tuba solo a lot this year

tubacdk wrote:I played a 4v piggy for a good amount of time and never really thought I wanted a 5th valve. If I needed a Db above pedal C, and false toned it without a problem. the 1st & 4th slides got a bit of use to get the low stuff in tune, but it was never a big hassle. I only got rid of that horn because of a sweet deal on a 3/4 RM CC... otherwise I'd still have it and be glad to play it!

Sounds very familiar, ck -- I bought a 601-4 (current model number, big brother to the piggy) from Walter Sear many years ago, and I'm still enjoying playing it. As I was trying out different horns, I asked Mr. Sear about the 5-valve version, and he said it was a little more versatile and somewhat stuffier than the 4-valve. The first valve slide does get a workout, but, as you said, it's not a problem ... it gets to be almost automatic (like trombone slide positions) after a while. The false-tone Db-above-pedal-C is very usable. I've never regretted going with the 4-valve!

MartyNeilan wrote:I see a lot of 4 valved CC's floating around, and it got me to thinking. Outside of Chuck D in the Canadian Brass, who still regularly uses 4 valved CC's?

Ooh, ooh, ooh !!! I know, I know, I know !!!

"I DO!" (er .. "did" until recently ...)

Until recently, I was playing a very nice, older (16.5" bell) Miraphone 186-4U CC that I traded to Andy Smith for his 5V Conn 56J. My playing was with quintet (mostly), community concert band, brass choir, and an occasional pit orchestra. I played the low F 1,2,4 and used other alternate fingerings for the lower notes. The MAIN thing I like about a 5V vs. a 4V tuba is that (for CC) the C# / low F# notes that I would have fingered 2,4 are much easier for me to finger 2,3,5. Other than that, I have not yet found a huge difference ("advantage"), as I don't do a lot of low register playing. [And, I haven't spent much time exploring other uses for the 5th valve for clever alternate fingerings and special applications.]

Cheers,

Dr. William Holmes at Arkansas State played a 4 valve Mirafone 186 CC all of his tenure here. Also played with Arkansas Symphony and did his DMA at UNT with it.

Tom Mason

When I was at Arkansas State (1996-97), Dr. Holmes was doing most of his playing on a 5-valve B&S PT-10. But as far as his CC playing, whenever he did use a CC, he always used that 4-valve 186.

I have used a 4-valve Alexander 163 CC for as main tuba for over 29 years.
My other CC tuba (Meinl Weston 32) has 5 valves.

Mark

While my Rudy 4/4 5v CC is my main battle horn, it's soooo much nicer to pick up my Weril 4v CC and just play (or practice). I use it in my jazz group and quintet and haven't need a 5th valve. On my F, I want 6 valves.

I must agree with Mary Ann about the horn with the 23 combination being more useful. I can play Eb's really in tune, and the 523 F can split the tuner. I played a piggy for a long time and was happy with the 124 combination for low F's, my PT20P can be so close on the tuner I havn't really tried alternate fingerings for other notes, although I have played Eb's 51, but a little pull works wonders also. I also remeber Bob Tucci playing privlidged tones on my piggy without any problem, but as a mere mortal, I didn't do so well.

Shopping for a CC tuba on a budget, to use as a doubling horn, I lucked into a good deal on a really nice Conn 3J (Ray Stewart of the Meridian Arts Ensemble plays one). Plenty of room on the first valve slide for low F and Eb, and the false tone D and Db (and even soft pedal C on the fourth valve, for that scary moment near the end of The Lion King, which is what I bought this horn for) come out great. With the right mouthpiece, which fortunately turns out to be small enough for my bass trombone face to play comfortably, the overall pitch of this horn is excellent. I hardly move the first valve slide at all except for F and Eb.