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Hello,

I have often heard get a degree in music educations, and not performance. I want to know what I can do if I get a degree in music. I know it's like finding a needle in a hay stack for orchestral gigs. Is there money in this industry? I do not want to be filthy rich. I want to be comfortable like 60-70k a year would be nice. I have looked into the military bands I was even accepted into the marine corps band, but once they found out I was color blind they kindly stopped talking to me. I really don't want to teach I would love to play in a wind symphony or brass band. If any of you guys/girls know of some salaries I would like to know about salaries.

Thanks

Nick.

tubagod94 wrote: I want to be comfortable like 60-70k a year would be nice.

The odds that you will make that from tuba are slim...very slim...(To earn that much from playing tuba you have to win a job in a relatively big symphony orchestra.) http://www.najp.org/articles/2010/08/sy ... e-num.html" target="_blank


Maybe, get another degree and get a music minor on the side...

tubagod94 wrote: I really don't want to teach I would love to play in a wind symphony or brass band. If any of you guys/girls know of some salaries I would like to know about salaries.

Average brass band salary: 0$
Average Wind band Salary 0$
( My average is grossly unfair as there are several wind bands that do get paid. But the reality is that no one earns a full time salary from playing in a wind band and the amount of people who pay to play in a wind band brings the average salary down...)

I have been very fortunate... I have attended a performing arts school which is like a junior conservatory. We do three hours of music a day with theory piano music history etc. I just don't know what to do for college and nothing else really interests me.

bloke wrote:Consider the students in school bands and do not obtain a music education degree as a "fall back". (In other words, only obtain a music education degree as a "Plan A".) Institutional teaching is very frustrating. Immature/issue-laden parents/students, cowardly administrators, bizarre legislation, and politicians will all put the squeeze on you and work to prevent you from doing what you think you are there to do. Entry level teacher pay (unlike what some teachers believe) is...well...barely within the "top 50%" of American incomes, but barely above that - and the top teacher pay levels are not those which allow for tremendous luxury. Finally, high school band directors really do not (as do other types of teachers) have much of a "summer vacation". They might have two or three weeks off, but have to get ready for (and "do") band camps...and then (as beginnings of school years have been pushed back to early August dates in many states) school is back in session. Besides everything else, many hours are spent working with parents (and parents' egos) to try to fund band endeavors. Occasionally, malicious female students who have beefs with their teachers (didn't get "first chair" flute...??) might claim that their teachers "sexually harassed" them, and suddenly a hapless and innocent teacher is ruined for life. All of this having been said, teaching CAN be a very rewarding experience, but (like music performance) it is very much a "calling".

Quoted for truth. If you use education as a "fall back" option, you will be miserable if you ever end up teaching. That's bad for you, and it's bad for the students.

tubagod94 wrote:I have been very fortunate... I have attended a performing arts school which is like a junior conservatory. We do three hours of music a day with theory piano music history etc. I just don't know what to do for college and nothing else really interests me.

At least up here in Washington State, to earn the kind of green you want teaching school, you will have to have 15 years of experience and a Master's degree (or equivalent college credits at the 200 level or above). I know. That's where I'm at (only with 31 years experience. The pay steps end at 15 years and a Master's degree. $200 a year more for a PhD. Whee.).

If you can't decide what to do with yourself, do like I did: get a job pouring concrete. You will think hard and decide what you want to do after pouring a few thousand cubic yards of mud. Hard, physical labor can be inspirational...

Bloke is giving you a taste of reality. Like, painters, athletes and actors, you have to be the very best and very lucky to get one of the prized "you made it" jobs. You have to be willing to work at almost anything else and take lessons and audition and try and try until you make it. To do that you have to really love your music. To teach you have to love not only the music but the teaching too. You'll not be happy and you'll short change the students if you don't. Not a pretty picture, but life isn't always very pretty.

What do you think the people with degrees in History, or Philosophy, or Mathematics, or French Literature do?

"Music" is not a job title. A bachelor's degree is not a job training credential.

Read the want ads. Visit your school's placement center. Get a job.

Or, go to grad school and repeat the process in 2, 5, or 7 years. Note that "grad school" doesn't have to be in "music".

Or..."professional school".

Or...learn a trade.

What do you *want* to do?

What *can* you do?

What skills do you have? Well...I assume that you now know how to read, write reports, gather information and form conclusions. There are hundreds of jobs that need those skills. Of course, you often have to start at the bottom and work your way up.

There's always construction work, and other forms of manual labor. Pay can be good - just be sure to learn the business and move up before you become too old to lift and carry.

Nick -

I'm guessing you are about 17 years old, judging from your handle. For one thing, you don't have to have the whole thing set in stone and you can always shift gears later.

The thing is, you probably wouldn't be writing this post if you were one of the rare few so completely dedicated to a life of performance that the thought of doing anything else is alien to you. As someone with multiple degrees in the music field (Bachelors, German version of a Masters, and Ph.D.), I can tell you that it takes a LOT of hard work to get through all the school but then it's no walk in the park to put together the kind of money you've decided would make you comfortable. There are some of the most qualified people in the world all competing for a handful of jobs out there and every year the field shrinks a little bit.

No matter what you begin to decide on, first sit down with your parents, an advisor, or a knowledgeable adult friend in the industry who knows you really well, and talk it over. There's no reason you can't use your ability as a musician to open doors (scholarships!!!) and, as good tuba players are rare, you might be able to go into a decent college and work out a way to get lessons and lots of playing time (chamber music, orchestra/band whatever) without being a music major. You'd be surprised at the kinds of doors that might open for you.

And, if you don't know what you want to do with your life but think you want to go to school, take a few semesters to figure it out while exploring a variety of fields but playing music the whole time. You may even end up forming a group in college with some friends that is so successful that it turns you into a professional - this kind of thing happens all the time.

With regard to salaries - it can depend on where you live. 70k in Boston is barely getting by but 40k in Buffalo is living like a king. I was perfectly content in Germany playing a few gigs a week as a sub and teaching English part time.

Good luck!

Encouragement intended:

Play your heart out, and find a really solid plan B.

I have a BA and an MM from good schools. I found a career as an air traffic control specialist. In music, I couldn't get the door open: the FAA sent me to the busiest facility in the world when I knew ****.

Now I read this forum and play lip slurs to a Gene Pokorny recording, and life is good.

PS: color blind prevents an air traffic control career, too.

Best wishes and good luck!

PSS: my advisor in music school told us to work up the piano skills, and I can't tell you how many times (decades, really) I wished I had really believed that.

The short answer is: nothing!

I'm lucky enough to have a playing job earning the sort of money that you said "would be nice". There aren't many of them available, and the fact is that having a performance degree is irrelevant to winning those jobs.

That's not to downplay the importance of education, but a performance degree counts for nothing when you're auditioning behind a screen.

Good luck on your choices,

Cam

Going to college to get a job is like going to McDonald's for a prime rib. It's technically possible, but you're missing the point.

Bloke disagrees with me on this notion, but his examples prove that plenty of people go on to great careers with limited college, irrelevant college, or no college. And plenty of college-educated folks don't end up with professional success.

If you want a job, get a job. If you want a job playing music, get good. Practice rooms look the same everywhere. Your practice room at home doesn't even require tuition.


In the interest of full disclosure (..if anyone cares???), I am currently a full-time student. I also teach a college course, so some of that side of the equation goes into my thinking, too.

I remember back then when I was at that age to choose a profession...

The guy sitting next to me had just won the European solo prize on tuba
and there were four (4!) tuba positions in Norway, all of course occupied.

It is better now, but I do not think anyone has an education as low
as a masters degree. When there is an open position, they apply from all
over the world.

I asked my selves.....Am I to be the the best out of theses guys?

I chickened out

Teaching would probably be my main source of income if I 'walked down that line'
and with my what might be described as limited patience with people not
doing what their told.....It simply wouldn't be a very bright idea

Many, many people go to school after high school thinking that they're going to work in their major field. Most people get away from their major eventually instead of sticking with it for a lifetime. Plus there are quite a number of college majors that are almost unemployable except for teaching that major to more potential majors who will then be unemployable, at least in that field.

Some employers are happy to accept a wide variety of majors because they feel that simply getting through college demonstrates study skills, general intelligence, and sticktoitivness. Some jobs strictly require a particular piece of paper from a specific type of institution.

My freshman year was spent at a nationally known engineering & technology university. In his address to the freshman class, he cited a long string of graduates of the school who had achieved national prominence. None of them were engineers, and a minority of them were in tech areas.

bloke wrote:SIDEBAR... INSTRUCTIONS TO ORIGINAL POSTER: IGNORE

sloan wrote:There's always construction work, and other forms of manual labor. Pay can be good - just be sure to learn the business and move up before you become too old to lift and carry.

It consistently seems to be argued that "college" is not a place to get job training (EVEN THOUGH *THE* resultant significant document of a "Music Education" degree is a "Teacher Certificate" - a specific license to teach...and one of the VERY FEW TYPES OF DEGREES consistently mentioned on this TUBA PLAYING discussion list), but then one of these predictable posts is post-scripted with a statement strongly implying that - outside of a college degree opening doors for "good" jobs - the only sorts of available jobs involve "the sweat of one's brow" (or - hopefully - ordering others around who are sweating)...

One of the things taught in college is sound argumentation.

Generally, this does not involve selective quoting and then incorrect paraphrasing.

But...ignoring that....surely you've seen enough of my "pre-scripted responses" to know that I don't consider Music Ed as typical of the "college experience". It, like Engineering, and Nursing, and Accounting is part college and part professional training.
And...that's precisely what's wrong with it.

Moving on - the OP should listen carefully to those responders who have hinted that Music Ed is properly thought of as a specialization of Education, and NOT as a specialization of Music. If you want to teach (first) and then want to teach music, then by all means don't go to college - go to Music Ed school.

It's no secret that I also hold little truck with Music Performance as a first-class college major. It smacks of "professional school" - with the added twist that there are very few jobs in the "profession" waiting for eager graduates (which is why they foolishly switch to Music Ed so that they will have Plan B available to them).

For most 18-22yo folk in the USA, "college" is largely a way to keep kids off the job market while they mature. You can mature in other ways. You can also learn things in other ways. College conveniently combines the two (and adds in football and parties).

In my opinion, 18-22yo folk should pursue "academic" courses of study (in between football games and parties) and NOT "professional training". They should study "useless" things like Mathematics or Poetry or History or Physics - none of which prepare you for any specific "job".

Note that (in this country) the Medical establishment largely agrees. There are precious few "Medicine" undergraduate programs out there. Instead, Medicine is perfectly happy to accept students who majored in Math or Physics or Poetry or Music and then give them professional training in Med School. [to be fair, there are a few courses you need to take as an undergraduate to succeed in Med School - a little Biology and a lot of Chemistry are useful. But, the point is that you don't have to MAJOR in Biology or Chemistry]. Here, I think Medicine gets it right and Engineering (and Education, and Music PERFORMANCE) get it wrong. 18-22yo folk first need what used to be called a "Liberal Arts Education" before training for (or even selecting) a "profession".

It's also true that there are many career paths that don't require "college". Joe might consider that there might not be as many as there were back in the Stone Age when he and his many successful friends were 18.

Back to Music Performance - in many ways I think it's too much like "football" as a college major. If that's what you want to do, why do you think "college" is the way to do it? Use the Baseball model instead - baseball players don't go to college; they go to the minor leagues. In my personal "perfect world", football and basketball players (and tuba players?) should do the same thing. It used to be the case that Lawyers and Physicians did it that way, too. Only those headed for academia, or the clergy, went to "college".

Alas - we can't go back to those days. A "college education" has come to be expected for a majority of the population. It's the new "High School". I can see that point of view. The mistake, in my opinion, is trying to get BOTH a "college education" AND "job training" at the same time.

So...here, Joe and I are in violent agreement. If you want "job training" - go and get it. College is probably not the place to do that. On the other hand, if you want an "education", then stop asking "what good is it?". The only reasonable response is: "What good is a newborn baby?"

Now - truth in advertising. For those who don't know, I teach Computer Science (to students ranging from Freshman to PhD candidates). Lots of students enter the CS program because they think it's "job training". Well...they are often quickly dis-abused of that silly notion. Similarly, companies often complain that we aren't "teaching the right things - the things graduates need to step right into a job". Well, guess what - they are right. We aren't there to train their (future) employees. The English majors don't spend a lot of time learning how to write business letters - and our majors don't spend a lot of time learning....whatever it is companies think is useful to them.

Music should (I think) take the same approach. Teach the students MUSIC. What good is it? Who cares? The point is: that's the wrong question.

tubagod94 wrote: I want to know what I can do if I get a degree in music.

Serious answer:
If you don't have the disposition to be a band director, and don't have the incredibly high level of skills to be a fulltime performer, consider a music business or commercial music degree and get hooked up with the best internships you can while still in college.
A generic "music" degree may not open many doors fresh out of school unless you have something else to go with it.

tubagod94 wrote:I have been very fortunate... I have attended a performing arts school which is like a junior conservatory. We do three hours of music a day with theory piano music history etc. I just don't know what to do for college and nothing else really interests me.

There are countless things that are interesting, even within your chosen field (music). What about music history? Acoustics? Music technology? Ethnomusicology? Composition? Theory? Instrument repair? Music is a wide field, and performance isn't the only area that counts.

Now, for the money part---if you're into music to make a comfortable living, then your ladder may be on the wrong wall. My suggestion is to start looking at the degree programs at whatever colleges you are interested in, and imagine what sort of job you could get with said degree. If you find a degree that makes you go, "I would enjoy that job and that degree," then consider that as a separate alternative. You'll always have music, so think about not basing your future on that one goal.

bloke wrote:One thing does seem clear: The one way that gathering college degrees does - for sure - seem to be "job training" is training to work at a college. Colleges consistently require terminal college degrees to get a job working at a college, and in this they do not seem to hold much respect for learning in other ways.

But think about this for a second: Colleges often hire people to do three things: Research, Teach and Administrate.

With a Ph.D/D.M.A. etc... you have most likely have done the first two....
Not that someone who doesn't have a degree won't have any of those, but the reality is that it almost impossible to conduct the research and publish papers if you are not in some kind of higher ed school. The real-peer reviewed journals would certainly not let someone publish an article if they only had only sources, they'd request archival work, or many references, etc...

The reality is that some universities will hire people just because of the research they do and not because of their degree. In music this is really tricky, especially with performers, since "research" (ie. gigs) as a performer are harder to cast in the same light as publications and other research activities.

In my experience, the ensembles and musical opportunities at colleges are NOT restricted to music majors. They might have the first preference, but at my school they were always open to ALL available talent on an audition basis. So even if you pick another major, don't think that you have counted yourself out from having further musical training and involvement in college. At my school, there were far too many cases to count where there were extraordinary musicians who were not music majors -- and not because they wouldn't have made it into the program, but for the personal choice of pursuing another major/career.

This is just a sign of things to come in the real world, where there are a TON of great players who do not make their living with music.

bloke wrote:

tubagod94 wrote:...nothing else really interests me.

This statement is somewhat worrisome, but its your responsibility alone to decide whether your personal universe and skill set is smaller or larger.

This is not worrisome Bloke. I want to do aviation as a career, but I am colorblind and that takes a lot of work to get around and I have grown up with music.

I just want to know what kind of life I have if I peruse music. I would kill to record for movies and stuff, but that a one in a millions shot. Is it possible to still get gigs if you don't have a degree in music? Like be a ringer for small groups, or even teach private lessons?

Nick Phillips.

Go for it if you want a music degree (performance, theory, composition,..). Earning a degree in music is a very satisfying way to spend at least four years in college. Spending so much time doing what you love is an awesome experience. I loved every minute of my music undergraduate degree. Just don't think that a music degree (or any college degree) will equal a job.

If you want to teach music get a degree in music education. DO NOT major in music education as a fall back plan. It will take all of your energy to get and maintain a music teaching position. I know because I was one of the lucky ones from my school's class of 1980 that landed a high school music teaching job (band and chorus) that started in the fall of 1980.

If you want a degree in performance, minor in an area (computers, health care, accounting, ...) that will increase your chances of finding a job after you graduate. You could also minor in music and major in another field.

If you want to be the best player possible, but not looking for a degree, find a great teacher, go to a technical/trade school or community college and learn a trade and go to work. Earn a good living and practice your butt off.

There are plenty of playing opportunities out there that have nothing to do with earning a music degree. BTW, two years into it, I switched careers and eventually ended up teaching mathematics. I enjoy practicing and playing now more than ever.