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I have a few questions:

1. When someone says a piece of music is for example in the key of F minor, what makes it different from the key of Ab major? Or is it just a preference? Also, if there really is a difference, how could you tell?

2. Other than the 12 common Major keys (C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, G, D, A, E, B) what other keys should I really be familiar with? I've only played in a few others like Cb, F#, and C#.
And what are the most common keys just in Orchestral/ Symphonic works?

3. I've gotten two different answers on this one, I know an accidental applies for a whole measure but is it only on the octave it appeared on or all octaves? And if a measure has a note with an accidental that is tied into a note in the next measure does the accidental apply for that measure also?

4. Lets say a song is in the key of Bb and there is a flat marking on a Bb or Eb with no accidentals earlier in the measure to cancel it out, would the note then be a double flat? And one last thing, what is the point of a double flat or double sharp as an accidental? I understand why they're in a key signature just not why they are used as an accidental.

Thank you for reading and happy Thanksgiving!!!

These are all very good questions and they indicate that you have given some thought to your music. However, I would like to go back to an earler post of yours regarding the Vaughan Williams tuba concerto:

TinyTubist97 wrote:I have been assigned this piece which was originally for bass tuba but I have to play it on contra bass. Any advice from previous experience on how I can play it or anything you've done to this piece to help make sound it better? I can play all of the notes so thats not an issue.

Any help would be appreciated!

In this previous thread I ask who assigned the Vaughan Williams to you and I do not believe you answered that question. So, again, I would ask who assigned this to you? Are you still planning to perform this work? Are you taking private lessons?

Oh I'm sorry there were so many replies I was trying to find the biggest questions and answer those. My private instructor assigned it and though my mom and I can't afford Interlochen at the time being I still hope to perform it for my local solo and ensemble competition!

TinyTubist97 wrote:Oh I'm sorry there were so many replies I was trying to find the biggest questions and answer those. My private instructor assigned it and though my mom and I can't afford Interlochen at the time being I still hope to perform it for my local solo and ensemble competition!

Have you asked your private instructor the questions you posted above?

I do and I have, It's just that many different people have said conflicting things and I don't know who is correct. I came here to see other peoples answers because they might agree with one person which would give me an idea of whats really right.

TinyTubist97 wrote:
1. When someone says a piece of music is for example in the key of F minor, what makes it different from the key of Ab major? Or is it just a preference? Also, if there really is a difference, how could you tell?

When looking at only one line these are things that would stick out. Look at the last note. Usually the tonic is there(ie. if it ends on F its f minor; Ab for Ab major) In f minor you will usually find some accidentals on E (natural or flat) (leading tone vs sub-tonic) and on D (again natural or flat)
_______

Off-track digression: keys and modes exist because of the finer organization and placement of tones and semitones. All exists are predicated upon is use of the tritone (Db & G in Ab)(Enat and Bb in f minor) as the most tension filled chord(V7) that needs to resolve to I, the tonic.

TinyTubist97 wrote: 2. Other than the 12 common Major keys (C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, G, D, A, E, B) what other keys should I really be familiar with? I've only played in a few others like Cb, F#, and C#.
And what are the most common keys just in Orchestral/ Symphonic works?

I have not made a census of all keys. However if yoou know all those twelve keys (with their minor realtives) without hesitations you are on the right track. A lot of new music after 1900 does not have a key center. (ie. fully chromatic)

TinyTubist97 wrote: 3. I've gotten two different answers on this one, I know an accidental applies for a whole measure but is it only on the octave it appeared on or all octaves? And if a measure has a note with an accidental that is tied into a note in the next measure does the accidental apply for that measure also?

1. Whole measure only on the written octave.
2. No the accidental would not apply to the next measure.

See example:


Fyi, the staves are Bass clef, Alto Clef and 3 treble clef staves. So the resulting sonority is F-E-C#-D.

TinyTubist97 wrote: 4. Lets say a song is in the key of Bb and there is a flat marking on a Bb or Eb with no accidentals earlier in the measure to cancel it out, would the note then be a double flat? And one last thing, what is the point of a double flat or double sharp as an accidental? I understand why they're in a key signature just not why they are used as an accidental.

No, only a double-flat ore double-sharp makes it double flat. If there is a flat it might just be cautionary. (or sloppy proofing)


The easiest way to understand double-sharps and flats is it is a lot like spelling of homophones. (ie. there, their, they're) Three notes can sound the same but the context and the use will determine the musical spelling.

Think about this: What is the leading-tone to G# minor? (F double-sharp) It will "sound the same" as G but in context it is not a G but rather a F double-sharp.

TinyTubist97 wrote: And one last thing, what is the point of a double flat or double sharp as an accidental? I understand why they're in a key signature just not why they are used as an accidental.

I have asked this of several people, and after receiving exactly the same non-answer each time, I've concluded that it is secret lore, and people who know would have to kill you if they told you. They've all been trained by their overlords to say the same thing: "It has to do with music theory." That has been the only answer I've ever been able to get out of anyone.

talleyrand wrote:

TinyTubist97 wrote: And one last thing, what is the point of a double flat or double sharp as an accidental? I understand why they're in a key signature just not why they are used as an accidental.

I have asked this of several people, and after receiving exactly the same non-answer each time, I've concluded that it is secret lore, and people who know would have to kill you if they told you. They've all been trained by their overlords to say the same thing: "It has to do with music theory." That has been the only answer I've ever been able to get out of anyone.

Well, it does have to do with music theory. What is the perfect fifth up from B? Is it F# or Gb? What is the perfect fifth up from Cb? Is it F# or Gb? How are B and Cb related? How are F# and Gb related? Why is the perfect fifth different for B and Cb?

talleyrand wrote:

TinyTubist97 wrote: And one last thing, what is the point of a double flat or double sharp as an accidental? I understand why they're in a key signature just not why they are used as an accidental.

I have asked this of several people, and after receiving exactly the same non-answer each time, I've concluded that it is secret lore, and people who know would have to kill you if they told you. They've all been trained by their overlords to say the same thing: "It has to do with music theory." That has been the only answer I've ever been able to get out of anyone.

Look at the following example. On the third beat of measure one there is an F double sharp. The resultant chord is C#-A-E-Fdouble sharp). This chord sounds like a V7 but it is an Augmented 6th chord (diminished third in this inversion). If one were to write in a G instead of an F double sharp, the expectation would be that the next chord after be D. (because A-C#-E-G is the V7 of D and V7 chords have to resolve)(There is also the possibility that it would resolve to B minor or to a diminished chord...)


What happens here though is that it resolves to G# first inversion(V of C# minor)

Thank you both for the answers!

The point of a double sharp or double flat is to maintain a clear "letter-difference" between sounding steps. We use the notation to show "harmonic function" and the tendencies of certain scale degrees to move in predictable ways.

We actually tune notes differently depending on their functional role: think about how to tune the third in a major triad (you tune it low) or a leading tone in a melodic passage. Generally speaking, we see double accidentals either in areas of modulation (moving from one key to another) or in instances of tonicization (treating a chord as a temporary Tonic by giving it its very own Dominant). In either case, the spelling helps us by showing a difference in scale degrees - the same thing our ears tell us when we're not reading the music at all.

Example: if we are treating G# as a tonic (like in G# minor), it would be "Do" or scale degree "1." A G natural couldn't be a leading tone (functionally) because it is an altered form of "Do" and not any form of "Ti" (or scale degree 7) So we would use Fx (F double-sharp) because each version of "F" is some kind of "Ti" in G#. And we know that Ti usually leads to Do.

If we are in the key of Db major, and we want to show a motion from a lowered scale degree 6 to scale degree 5 (very common to borrow this from the parallel minor in Romantic period music), we would use a Bbb (b6). b6 has a tendency to move to 5, which in this case is flatted by the key signature. The scale degree shows the function and the voice-leading tendency.

TinyTubist97 wrote:3. I've gotten two different answers on this one, I know an accidental applies for a whole measure but is it only on the octave it appeared on or all octaves? And if a measure has a note with an accidental that is tied into a note in the next measure does the accidental apply for that measure also?

Only the octave it appears on; no. See Stone, Kurt. Music Notation in the Twentieth Century: A Practical Guidebook, (1980); Manoff, Tom. "The Music Kit Workbook", Fourth Edition (2001) ; Coulon, Jean-Pierre, Sottisier de la gravure de partoches, (2009).

pgym wrote:

TinyTubist97 wrote:3. I've gotten two different answers on this one, I know an accidental applies for a whole measure but is it only on the octave it appeared on or all octaves? And if a measure has a note with an accidental that is tied into a note in the next measure does the accidental apply for that measure also?

Only the octave it appears on; no. See Stone, Kurt. Music Notation in the Twentieth Century: A Practical Guidebook, (1980); Manoff, Tom. "The Music Kit Workbook", Fourth Edition (2001) ; Coulon, Jean-Pierre, Sottisier de la gravure de partoches, (2009).

I agree. However, this is complicated by the fact that some composers, editors and engravers don't agree with us.

Well, now I know why they say "it has to do with music theory": because it's a lot of bother to say any more than that. Thanks for going to the trouble.

Trevor Bjorklund wrote:The point of a double sharp or double flat is to maintain a clear "letter-difference" between sounding steps. We use the notation to show "harmonic function" and the tendencies of certain scale degrees to move in predictable ways.

We actually tune notes differently depending on their functional role: think about how to tune the third in a major triad (you tune it low) or a leading tone in a melodic passage. Generally speaking, we see double accidentals either in areas of modulation (moving from one key to another) or in instances of tonicization (treating a chord as a temporary Tonic by giving it its very own Dominant). In either case, the spelling helps us by showing a difference in scale degrees - the same thing our ears tell us when we're not reading the music at all.

Example: if we are treating G# as a tonic (like in G# minor), it would be "Do" or scale degree "1." A G natural couldn't be a leading tone (functionally) because it is an altered form of "Do" and not any form of "Ti" (or scale degree 7) So we would use Fx (F double-sharp) because each version of "F" is some kind of "Ti" in G#. And we know that Ti usually leads to Do.

If we are in the key of Db major, and we want to show a motion from a lowered scale degree 6 to scale degree 5 (very common to borrow this from the parallel minor in Romantic period music), we would use a Bbb (b6). b6 has a tendency to move to 5, which in this case is flatted by the key signature. The scale degree shows the function and the voice-leading tendency.

Double sharps and flats are usually avoided in jazz music. Why? Is the intonation so bad anyway? Or just good enough for jazz? or just better to read?

muttenstrudel wrote:Double sharps and flats are usually avoided in jazz music. Why? Is the intonation so bad anyway? Or just good enough for jazz? or just better to read?

Jazz is not "functionally tonal" so spelling for theoretical reasons becomes useless.

Double sharps and flats are usually avoided in jazz music. Why? Is the intonation so bad anyway? Or just good enough for jazz? or just better to read?

I'd guess it was because jazz makes little attempt to continue the classical tradition, and rightly so! Jazz uses a hybrid notation that is completely appropriate to its idiosyncrasies. Piano parts often use chord symbols, negating the need for complicated voice-leading schemes. This is almost a kind of return to the figured bass of the Classical period, and relies on the players' fluency in the language of the genre.

Let's face it - the 5-line staff (and its itinerant sharps and flats) is outdated for most music past about 1850. As soon as things started getting really chromatic (and harmonically interesting), it would have made more sense to expand to some kind of notation system with the capacity to handle all 12 notes of the piano keyboard equally. If you look back at Medieval music, you will see 4-line staves that were sufficient for the 6-note scales they used.

Mark wrote:I agree. However, this is complicated by the fact that some composers, editors and engravers don't agree with us.

They're wrong.

bloke wrote:C, E-flat and G go into a bar. The bartender says, "sorry, but we don't serve minors."

That's enough for the rim shot!