TubeNet

Yes, I'm one of that minority of people who have those urges that we were taught were wrong, and for decades I bought that and fought against my own nature. I didn't fight very hard, but the guilt and shame were always there. But no more. Now I'm just annoyed with myself for 25 years of not really questioning the conventional wisdom about embouchures, even though it never seemed to work for me. Yes - I'm an upstream player, and I'm not ashamed of it.

LJV wrote:There are some great upstream players out there. If it feels, er, uh, sounds good, do it, Donn!

Ditto. I know a saxophone convert who sounds fantastic, in discussion with him, I discovered he was also an upstreamer... nothing wrong there, he was quite solid!

Donn wrote:Yes, I'm one of that minority of people who have those urges that we were taught were wrong, and for decades I bought that and fought against my own nature. I didn't fight very hard, but the guilt and shame were always there. But no more. Now I'm just annoyed with myself for 25 years of not really questioning the conventional wisdom about embouchures, even though it never seemed to work for me. Yes - I'm an upstream player, and I'm not ashamed of it.

I think that "conventional wisdom" is more like "conventional ignorance" or even "conventional stupidity." I end up teaching a lot of upstream players (and other players whose embouchures aren't working for various reasons) who have suffered at the hands of those "conventional" teachers, because I understand all the different embouchures and how to find and get back to the way your face really wants to work. I know it can be frustrating when you've spent years or decades developing something will never work for you because it wasn't right in the first place.

I came to the same decision a few years ago. Figured, to hell with it, I guess I'm upstream.

Ok, I'll be the first to ask... what is an "upstream" embrochure?

I believe a one time student of Doug's produced this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE1fn45b44c" target="_blank

I buy into it. He also has a great video on embouchure dysfunction that I found very helpful.

Upstream, but not obviously so. Note the bottom lip beyond the upper.

The Dave Wilken video I watched: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNfZpapmLIg, "Brass Embouchures" in 6 parts.

Hmmmm.

My wife and small children were absolutely intrigued by the embouchure visualiser photo two posts up.

I can remember various teachers and older players from my school days looking at various players and saying with great condescension “oh, they’re a downstream player” as though this was something not worth spitting on.
Which is normal or better?

I can remember hearing trumpet player after trumpet player reciting that they had found a new teacher who had a new embouchure system that was going to fix all their problems.
You only had to hear any of these guys play one note to see that they simply weren’t blowing the thing. (Air!!!!)

I’ve decided that the tuba is a non-embouchure instrument. The more I try to do nothing with my mouth and just move air from my gut, the more the problems that have plagued my playing for years seem to be disappearing. (Yeah, yeah, I know I need a teacher).

Regards

Gerard (stop trying to play the instrument – just exhale at the other side of the room and hold the tuba so that it gets in the way – it’s only an amplifier anyway).

The fact is that there are three very common and completely different embouchures. It's not a question of what's "normal" or "better," it's "which one is your face set up for."

Many players can simply "blow" and get reasonable results. However, as I've said here before, if it were that simple there's be a whole lot more monster players out there. Most players can benefit from some refinement, or in some cases a complete reprogramming if they've been doing things that are wrong for their face. And a lot of players, including many great ones, have practiced and gotten really good at things that are not the way their face really needs to work.

And to anwer to the inevitable "paralysis of analysis" comment: yes, over-thinking what you don't understand at all won't get you anywhere except confused. But when you DO know what you're looking at and approach it the right way, it all makes perfect sense.

Is playing "upstream" something you can train to do, or is it a natural result of anatomy? I tried to do this myself and couldn't really do it very well.

To quote Timothy Kent from his Bud Herseth Lesson Notes :

Sound is criterion for how you do this or that.

THINK ONLY WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE, NOT WHAT IT FEELS LIKE!

Play by sound, not by feel.

You never really know how much Doc and Bud hurt when they are playing, just play beautifully and forget how it feels.

http://abel.hive.no/trumpet/herseth/herseth_notes.html

I say if you are an upstream player, play that way as long as it SOUNDS good.

Donn wrote:I'm an upstream player, and I'm not ashamed of it.

You are not alone. It gets better.

Tubaryan" yeah, me too" 12

BRSousa wrote:Is playing "upstream" something you can train to do, or is it a natural result of anatomy? I tried to do this myself and couldn't really do it very well.

Good! What you experienced is a lot like what happens when I have tried to follow standard practice - I can sort of do it, but it's far from helpful.

There are a few people who have really studied this and know what they're talking about. I'm not one of them, I just watched a video Wednesday morning. My guess is that what's going on with me has a lot to do with a couple snaggle teeth behind my upper lip. Or it could be from playing reeds, I guess. All I know from what I've seen and read is that upstream embouchure is rare and not really elective - if that's what you have, you're stuck with it.

There are some great players and teachers who have occasionally taken the trouble to talk about embouchures, here in this forum, and they give out advice that helps a lot of people even if it has the potential to screw a few of us up. I reckon in the end it falls to me to know when something works for me and when it doesn't, especially when it's general advice that isn't intended for me specifically. But I will say, more general awareness on this matter would be great.

termite wrote:I’ve decided that the tuba is a non-embouchure instrument.

Don't take my word for granted but I have found that no matter how my face is on the mouthpiece I can get most normal range notes out sounding correct. When you get to the higher stuff or the lower stuff you might have to change but whether it is straight on, or I'm looking at the person next to me while playing or having an equal lip ratio, tons of top, tones of bottom, etc most stuff comes out sounding fine. When I tried to play a trumpet I really had to pay attention to how I put my lips on the mouthpiece or it sounded terrible (may seem bad (which it is) but within 5 minutes of me picking up the trumpet I had about the same range as many of the 4th and 5th year trumpet players in the band, and better tone than some of them (and I sounded terrible)).