Importance of a 5th valve

[drandomtubas]

I got a VMI 3302 recently ( in January) ... just because I thought having a fifth valve would be cool. I haveto say... I don't use it that often, but it has helped occasionally with some difficult fingerings... Plus I love it when other people( teenagers) give my tuba this look of awe and confusion when they see the fifth valve. hehe.

[WoodSheddin]

I'm still shopping around for a 4/4 BBb tuba. How important is having a 5th valve? If I buy a 4 valve horn am I always going to regret not having that extra valve?

-David

IMO, if you are looking for a horn to enjoy in community groups or church playing, then 4 valves are plenty. If you have more advanced aspirations like professional auditions or majoring in music in college then I would think the 5th valve would get a good workout.

[CJ Krause]

***

[ThomasP]

Most players don't pull slides on their 4th valve because its not easily accesible. I pull mine, but it is also right next to my 1st valve slide and I can operate both slides without moving my hand. On CC tuba you can play a low E 245 and 234. Both combinations could be fairly in tune, and the choice to play one over the other could be based on sound. One combination could be very out of tune, but have a better sound, that could constitute a slide being pulled. The CSO York's have 5th valves and Pokorny chooses to pull his 4th valve slide. I would rather have a 5th valve to have more fingering combinations on pitches than to have a 4th valve slide that was a foot long. If you won't use it don't waste your money. But something tells me that if you buy it you'll use it if not because you want to, but because you spent your money on it.[/quote]

[Allen]

I used to play BBb, but only with three valves. After a long lapse, I took up tuba again, and a CC tuba with five valves picked me. Initially, I wasn't sure what those two extra valves were really for, but I learned. I have found the fifth valve extremely useful for three common notes (below the staff, and in descending order): Db/C# (BBb equivalent: B), Gb/F# (BBb equivalent: E) and F (BBb equivalent: Eb). It's great to have these notes be in tune without having to pull slides or do a lot of lipping up or down. In fact, the only slide I move at all is the first one a little bit. Of course, the fifth valve is very useful on notes lower than the ones I mentioned.

The fifth valve can also be used to solve some passage problems. For example, rapidly alternating between D and C below the staff (BBb players think C and Bb) normally uses 4 for D and open for C. Well, the fourth valve tubing is too much to shunt in and out of the horn for really rapid trilling. Solution: Play D with 4 and C with 45. That's a lot less tubing to change in and out, and the notes respond quickly.

Here's another one: The tubas had to play a Eb to D (below the staff) trill that lasted for many measures. Normal fingerings: 23 and 4. The work-around: Pull the first valve slide, finger Eb 15, use valve 2 to trill down to D.

A few months ago I played a Tuba Christmas with a borrowed four-valve CC tuba. Now that I had gotten used to five valves, four seemed limiting. I solved the problem of playing Db in tune with a slide pull, and tried not to worry about the rest.

If I went back to BBb tuba, I would seriously think about how much work it would be to get the B below the staff in tune. If it didn't seem too hard, I might go for only four valves, particularly with a large (say 5/4) tuba, where I might to be able to lip any problem notes into tune if I didn't have time to do slide pulling. Of course, if I wanted to do a lot way down in the basement register, more valves would seem attractive.

Allen Walker

[jtuba]

How many times have you seen BBB in the rep? I don't thing Snedoker goes that low, I'll have to double check. Micky Wrobleski(?)'s book will go down there, but how many of us have the air flow to make music work in that register, or play more than two bars without passing out for that matter. Four valve BBb for me.

[Rick Denney]

My F tubas have five valves and I use the fifth valve routinely. The reason is that the music I play has notes that require it.

My Bb tubas all have four valves (except for those that have 3), and I never miss the fifth valve. The music I play never has notes that require a fifth valve. My Bb tubas have good false tones that are easier for me to blow with a good sound than by using the conventional valve combinations.

I have NEVER been asked to play a low B-natural, a semitone above the pedal.

The common pro-model CC tuba has five valves. But it should be noted that even in the pro ranks, this is a convenience rather than a requirement. Many of the classic Alexanders only have four valves, and if they are difficult to play it's not because they lack the fifth valve. And as I recall the legend, Fletcher had the fifth valve installed and then removed from his CC Holton, because he preferred the openness of the instrument without the additional valve.

My suspicion is that for every person in the U.S. who makes effective use of the fifth valve on a BBb tuba, there are five other 5-valve BBb tuba owners who bought them for the cache of having them, or because the tuba they liked happened to have one. Yes, the extra valve will help when playing Snedecor etudes in the practice room, but those notes rarely appear in band music, or even in orchestra music.

Finally, it should be noted that fifth valves are rarely provided on Bb tubas sold in the U.S., so requiring it reduces the availability of instruments considerably. You may not like the instruments that have the extra valve compared to the much larger number that don't. Even if I saw a real use for the fifth valve, I would hate to pass up a great tuba just because it didn't have one.

Rick "who has never missed a fifth valve on a Bb tuba, as long as it had good false tones" Denney

[windshieldbug]

But it should be noted that even in the pro ranks, this is a convenience rather than a requirement

I will underscore this. It makes some things EASIER to do, but only if you already hear them and can do them.

It doesn't fix a bad horn.

[Rick Denney]

by-the-way, original post-er, since you posed this question in 2004, what did you wind up purchasing?

Heh, heh. I missed that one completely.

Rick "and so it goes..." Denney

[pwhitaker]

... but those notes rarely appear in band music, or even in orchestra music. ...

I use those notes right above the pedal on my 1291 BBb regularly and often in Dixieland gigs:
The usual key for Wabash Cannonball is Eb and there is B major chord in the middle of the verse. ( Also near the end of Indiana.) I just love to stand on that low B when I've playing my solo turn. That note is the cat's pj's.

In blues songs going down to the low Db chromatically up to the F when in Bb is a fairly standard lick.

I used to do all of this with pedal tones on a 5 valve Eb and false tones on a 3 valve BBb sousaphone, but the 5th valve on the 1291 is more aesthetically satisfying. ... It fulfills me as a tubist.

[Rick Denney]

I used to do all of this with pedal tones on a 3 valve sousaphone, but the 5th valve on the 1291 is more aesthetically satisfying. ... It fulfills me as a tubist.

In which case, you demonstrate my point. You weren't asked to play it, but chose to, for reasons of your own. Others (even when playing Dixieland) could just choose to play different notes or in a different octave, right?

That was my answer when I asked a guy in a local jazz band about the bad notes on his tuba. His response: "I just don't play them."

Rick "who has nothing against a fifth valve on a Bb tuba, but who has never been tempted to shell out the extra grand it takes to have one" Denney

[Allen]

I have a question for the 4-valve BBb players here:

What fingerings (and slide pulls and/or lipping) do you use for these notes (in descending order) below the staff: B, E, Eb? These notes seem to appear fairly often in band music. On my old 3-valve BBb I used 123 (lip down), 123 (lip down), 0 (false tone). I've never played a 4-valve BBb.

Cheers,
Allen
who is waiting for someone to post that picture of the tuba with 100 or so valves

[Rick Denney]

I have a question for the 4-valve BBb players here:

What fingerings (and slide pulls and/or lipping) do you use for these notes (in descending order) below the staff: B, E, Eb? These notes seem to appear fairly often in band music. On my old 3-valve BBb I used 123 (lip down), 123 (lip down), 0 (false tone). I've never played a 4-valve BBb.

I play them 2-4, 2-4, and 0 (false tone), respectively. No (significant) lipping or pulling required on the E and B. Alternate resonances require a bit more steering, but they steer more easily than conventional resonances.

The "conventional" four-valve fingering for the low Eb is 1-2-4, but that is usually quite flat. You can also play it 1-4 and pull one of the slides considerably. With five valves, this would be 4-5, at least when the fifth valve branch is tuned to a flat whole step.

But there are no rules in that register. My two 5-valve F tubas require different fingerings in the half octave above their pedals, even those both have fifth valves that nominally mean the same thing.

Rick "who thinks the 1-2-3 combination eloquently argues for a fourth valve" Denney

[Chriss2760]

I'm still shopping around for a 4/4 BBb tuba. How important is having a 5th valve? If I buy a 4 valve horn am I always going to regret not having that extra valve?

No.

[Chriss2760]

I'm still shopping around for a 4/4 BBb tuba. How important is having a 5th valve? If I buy a 4 valve horn am I always going to regret not having that extra valve?

Should have been, "No, BBb horns don't need a 5th valve. Period." (You're thinking about the whole thing too much. )

[LoyalTubist]

Is he still around?

[Teubonium]

Is he still around?

His last visit was October 24, 2004

[Lee Stofer]

Just because of the vast differences in tubas available, some need more valves than others. Generally, the larger, older, and more conical a tuba is, the better the privileged tones. I have owned a Conn 21J BBb that had absolutely no need for a 4th valve, and a 6-valve F tuba that needed EVERY ONE. The Kanstul 5/4 BBb tuba has 4 valves, a tune-any-note main tuning slide trigger, and an upper 4th valve slide that has an approx. 14" pull, which makes a 1-2-3-4/ long 4th pull low B-natural a really nice, usable note. That horn has no need for a 5th, as it was intelligently designed to play everything well without it.