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Hello, one and all!

It looks like I'm going to be performing Verdi's Messa da Requiem later this spring, which should be a lot of fun. My question is, what tuba would you use for this piece? I've never seen the part, so I don't have any particular frame of reference. Since it is an ophicleide part, I figure a bass tuba would probably work just fine. However, I haven't seen the part, so I can't make that call just yet. At some point soon, I'm going to take a look at the score on IMSLP and see just what there is, but I'd be curious to hear what everyone else uses for this piece.

Thanks,
Aaron H.

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical- ... mode=model" target="_blank

Works *great* on cimbasso!

F sounds great

UncleBeer wrote:Works *great* on cimbasso!

+1, or if that's not an option an F is good too. With all due respect to Tony I'd prefer a MW2250

Ophicleide or cimbasso if you've got them (and can manage them), but otherwise certainly a bass tuba. If memory doesn't fail me, the lowest note is B natural (two lines below the staff), so it should be in the range of any F (or Eb) tuba.

While it would be pretty awesome to play it on cimbasso, I won't have access to one for this spring, and the same applies to the ophicleide. I've always wanted to play a cimbasso; I used to play bass trombone semi-seriously, and I'd like to see if any of those skills transferred over. I do have my own F tuba (a MW 45-SLP, for the curious), and a CC (PT-6), and I will also be renting the school's Willson Eb for the semester, (primarily for brass band playing, but if some other works lay well on it, I might also use it in other situations). Thanks for the input so far!

AH

What tuba you use depends on your concept of what you want the part to sound like. If you're in a full-time ensemble, the conductor might have some idea of what he wants the part to sound like but most don't think about tuba enough to know anything.

Listen to the Solti/Chicago recording and see if you like that sound. If you do, you'll know what horn you want.

I'm wondering if any trombone players get out their "pea-shooters" for a performance of this particular work.

I'm leaning towards none.

Keep in mind that Verdi ordered a specially constructed bass drum for the premiere of this work, called the "Verdi Drum." It is absolutely huge (the score calls for "the largest drum possible"). That should give you an idea of the kind of sound he was looking for.

Trevor Bjorklund wrote:Keep in mind that Verdi ordered a specially constructed bass drum for the premiere of this work, called the "Verdi Drum." It is absolutely huge (the score calls for "the largest drum possible"). That should give you an idea of the kind of sound he was looking for.

In the spirit of this post, I would also demand that all the strings replace their modern strings with catgut equivalents, the trombones be required to play on less-than-.500-bore instruments, the trumpets and horns use "natural" instruments with crooks and shanks, the flutes play on wooden conical "pre-Boehm" instruments, the clarinets play with hand-carved reeds only on instruments without the convenient "register key", the bassoons...

I could go on, but I'm sure the point has been made.

EDIT: Oh, and of course the correct answer to the OPs question is..."ophicleide." We have to respect the composer's wishes, don't we?

So much pseudo science and so much convoluted marketing! So sad for TubeNet that posters apparently rely on the illiteracy and ignorance of their assumed readers.

Verdi’s name was immensely popular in Italia of his day. It could be seen as graffiti everywhere, possibly because it was the acronym for Vittorio Emanuele Re D'Italia, the first king of the united Italia.

Those knowing Italian as well as knowing solfege never would doubt what made-of-brass bass instrument to take for anything Verdi: the brand should be King and the key should be D.

Might be hard to get in today’s marketplace, so Eb might be the closest relevant equivalent:

http://tinyurl.com/VerdiBrassBass

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Verdi on record, extolling his hatred of the tuba???

I suspect that his feelings about the instrument might have been as much political (since his operatic rival -- Wagner -- was such a fan of the beast), as it was musical. My impression is that whatever constituted a cimbasso, in those days, was his instrument of choice for the bass of the brass section.

Just play what you feel most comfortable for the part, or what has been requested by conductor. No-one else is going to care as long as you play the part in time, in tune with good tone.

I increasingly think tuba choice matters little to anyone but tuba players.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:We have to respect the composer's wishes, don't we?

Is that such a ridiculous idea?

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:I'm wondering if any trombone players get out their "pea-shooters" for a performance of this particular work. I'm leaning towards none.

(sigh...) This conversation's been had before. Best example here.

Forgive those of us who actually own these instruments and are interested in hearing what they sound like in real-life ensembles. They're usually a pleasant surprise for colleagues, and when they're not, they quickly get hidden back in the practice room closet. The know-nothing "one tuba fits all repertoire" mindset's more than a little dismaying though.

Recently, I went to a concert where one section (and ONLY one section) featured 'period' instruments. It was awful. The pitch was atrocious, there were more than a few missed notes, and the sound was all wrong. With everyone else in the orchestra playing modern instruments, I didn't get the point of using 'historically correct' instruments. Might I suggest, with a modern orchestra, we too, should use modern instruments.

Tubajason wrote:... play the part correctly ...

Hopefully this is a basic prerequisite for any musical situation, regardless of instrument choice. Right?

I feel my earlier post may have been misunderstood... In no way did I mean that keeping the "Verdi Drum" in mind was a suggestion to use "period" instruments. It is possible that people may have taken the bit in their teeth without understanding what Verdi means to the design and deployment of the modern bass drum.

My point was that one would make his or her choice of instruments based on a conception of sound to be used in the piece. And that requires context. First of all, the size and power of this particular requiem immediately suggests a huge, powerful sound. Second, Verdi's requiem is a late 19th century work and the drum he asked for was the biggest and most powerful available. If it wasn't big enough and powerful enough, build a bigger one. Think about what late 19th century means... Wagner, Bruckner, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, etc.

If there was a tuba part in, say, Mozart's requiem, it would necessarily require a smaller sound and a much lighter touch. In fact, it is common to have an trombone section (in that piece) using an alto, a small bore tenor, and a small bass or large tenor instead of a bass trombone. But take a listen to the Dies Irae in Verdi... pick a modern recording, any recording. There's gonna be a big, powerful choir. The trombones are going to be large bore, symphonic instruments. It's a big piece and requires a big sound.

And, for the record, period performances can be really excellent and fun to listen to, when done correctly. This means people who specialize in playing the instruments involved, which are more like cousins to modern instruments than siblings (check out Gardiner's recording of Symphonie Fantastique!!!). But "period" is such a loaded term and there still rages a huge debate in the academy as to what it means and how it should be done.

Trevor Bjorklund wrote:And, for the record, period performances can be really excellent and fun to listen to, when done correctly. This means people who specialize in playing the instruments involved, which are more like cousins to modern instruments than siblings (check out Gardiner's recording of Symphonie Fantastique!!!). But "period" is such a loaded term and there still rages a huge debate in the academy as to what it means and how it should be done.

Nothing wrong with period instruments. The problem is when one section uses period instruments on a lark, instead of the whole ensemble becoming committed to them.

I have a number of recordings of Hogwood's Academy of Ancient Music, and it alway seemed to me he believed that his group was ready for the studio as soon as they got all the notes right. Norrington, on the other hand, produced period performances of great power, which, in his words, had the intention of making the work sound new again. The others are in between these extremes. But groups like Gardiner's are committed to period instruments. The musicians make sure they can play them as musically as a modern instrument, which is assuredly more challenging.

I used to play in a reenactment band, and our leader always wanted us to collect and play saxhorns from the middle 1800's. I argued for modern instruments--in our reenactment backwater (Texas), people wouldn't know the difference anyway, but they would be listening to use with modern ears trained by the Canadian Brass to expect good tone and excellent, if not perfect, intonation. None of us had the skill or commitment to attain that standard with a three-valve over-the-shoulder saxhorn or keyed bugle.

Rick "play what works" Denney

Rick Denney wrote: Nothing wrong with period instruments. The problem is when one section uses period instruments on a lark, instead of the whole ensemble becoming committed to them.

So how do you think that applies to using, for instance, the cimbasso in an opera?

It seems to me that there is a lot of effort being put forward in finding the "right" tuba for a piece when the rest of the orchestra simply plays what they always play.

The previous generation of orchestral tuba players were often known by the one or two horns they played, usually in CC. Some of today's orchestral tubists don't seem to be identified with one horn at all or even one keyed horn.

So I agree with your posts but I think the trend with the current orchestral tubists is different. Not my preference.