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Would like to solicit opinions of the wise folk(!) of TubeNet...

Suppose you have a piston contrabass with 3/4" bore and, assuming there's room and that you want one, where do you put a rotary 5th Valve?

Almost all rotary instruments, bass or contra, have the 5th before 1-4 as does the Yam 621 F, as do most Rusk cut tubas.
Standard for probably most piston tubas is to have the 5th just after the pistons.
The 'classic' York placement is to have a rather large bore 5th just after the main slide.

All the above seem to work mostly well enough so does it even matter??

Anyone care to offer pros & cons...?

Thanks very much!
MP

bloke wrote:How many same-model sets of four tubas has anyone on TubeNet ever played that had their 5th valves placed (for side-by-side comparison purposes) in all four of these locations?

Folks' opinions won't be based on A-B-C comparisons obviously but that shouldn't stop them having opinions.

Joe, you build-up horns so when doing so, assuming all else was equal, where would you hope to put a 5th valve on a piston tuba? Does it vary from horn-to-horn or what? There must be a thought process =)

Mal

I know as little as anyone else BUT.. I'll take the bait.

It depends on what the bugle needs. A fifth valve is primarily used for low register work. MANY larger bore horns benefit from a smaller bore fifth valve(i.e. earlier in the bugle). Contrary to conventional wisdom a little resistance often HELPS the low end...the opposite also holds true... reduced resistance often helps up high. (An excellent modern example of this is the larger bore on the PT15/10 vs the smaller bore PrePT B&S F tubas. The PT15s sing more freely up high and sacrifices ease of response below the staff.) It's a common strategy on large bore tubas to use a 'stuffy' fingering to improve low note response.

Many rotary tubas have a typical 'German' smoke stack belled body taper and often have a larger bore valve section... placing the fifth first in line is likely not an accident... no doubt they tried alternative locations. B&S even went so far as to add a quick 90 degree turn when the leadpipe enters the valve section to built a little more resistance into the bugle. More 'old school' rotor tubas have the same bore through every valve.. those horns can really peel paint and speak extremely easy and clearly down low. The 188 is an excellent example. Newer designs have a more progressive bore.. the apparent result is that the low end holds together longer.. more like an 'American' fat body tuba.

Many of the piston tubas you cite are more inspired by traditional american fat body designs that historically had a relatively small bore in the valve section. Originally, placing the fifth valve later in the bugle probably made good design sense. Now that many fat bodied piston tubas are including such large bores that design decision might make less sense.. I suspect that many newer designs are fueled as much by marketing as by good design. Rusk is a very smart guy.. if he chose to place the fifth before the first we should all take pause and consider why. Then again, tastes and ability level are changing along with design.

Short answer: I don't know.

The "5th in the fourth valve slide" compromises intonation (ie, compromising the musical product) for a (perhaps dubious but arguable) better "feel" behind the horn. IMHO, intonation is more important.

Has a conductor ever asked how it *feels* to play your horn?

Although I voted on this issue, I have no preference for where the valve is placed. I purchase a tuba because it makes the sound I'm after. Of course, it has to play reasonably well in tune, and have a consistant 'feel' for my needs. HOWEVER, I have seen several instruments that are designed in such a way that the valve (or valves) is (are) not accessible for maintenance. This needs to be addressed.

[quote="cjk"]The "5th in the fourth valve slide" compromises intonation (ie, compromising the musical product) for a (perhaps dubious but arguable) better "feel" behind the horn. IMHO, intonation is more important.[\quote]


Hi-
The 5th in the fourth valve slide DOES NOT compromise intonation....sorry...

Mark

jonesmj wrote:

cjk wrote:The "5th in the fourth valve slide" compromises intonation (ie, compromising the musical product) for a (perhaps dubious but arguable) better "feel" behind the horn. IMHO, intonation is more important.[\quote]


Hi-
The 5th in the fourth valve slide DOES NOT compromise intonation....sorry...

Mark

Whether a dependent 5th compromises intonation depends on context.
Living without 2,3,5 is a pain for some, but usually the 4th valve is down when otherwise using 5th.

Some votes cast in the poll which is great but not so many folk adding the all important "WHY" they think what they do.
No doubt Mr Rusk is a smart guy but not many votes at this time for the leadpipe 5th. Wonder why...

Thanks for responses so far.
MP

jonesmj wrote:

cjk wrote:The "5th in the fourth valve slide" compromises intonation (ie, compromising the musical product) for a (perhaps dubious but arguable) better "feel" behind the horn. IMHO, intonation is more important.

Hi-
The 5th in the fourth valve slide DOES NOT compromise intonation....sorry...

Mark

Sorry, but BS. Be realistic. 2+4 combinations are good and sharp. If you want to doink with your fourth valve slide for those 2+4 combinations, be my guest. If you want to lose the 1+5 alternate for 2+3, have fun. If you want to lose the 1+2+5 alternate for 4th, go for it.

Hi-
Yes, 2-4 --like a low B on a F tuba --might be sharp ( or a low F# on a CC tuba or a low E on a BBb tuba)-but why not use your 1st valve slide and use 1-2-3 pull if a problem exists? If you need to use other combinations as suggested, the horn itself might have problems...

A dependent 5th valve Does Not affect intonation--you might need to use an alternative fingering, but the 'overall pitch' of the horn will not be altered by this ( besides the discussion of the impending Gemeinhardt tubas with this type of system, look at the M/W rotary BBb 5v versions of the Fafner, Fasolt, and the 197-- with the 5th rotor option, it is the 198---also the Yamaha 321 euphs with a 5th v option--just to mention a few....)

Mark

Peach wrote:Would like to solicit opinions of the wise folk(!) of TubeNet...

Suppose you have a piston contrabass with 3/4" bore and, assuming there's room and that you want one, where do you put a rotary 5th Valve?

Thanks very much!
MP

That is exactly what I have right now, I am so glad you asked!
Part of the fifth valve is currently on the horn. Part is in a box. And part still has yet to be purchased or fabricated.
Thanks for asking!

Hi-
It would really be interesting to have some type of horn and have ALL of the option made for the model to test: as a 4v, as a 5th valve horn with 5th above 1st, same but 5th after 4th, same but 5th after main tuning slide, and same but 5th in 4th tubing- and then see which is the best........
Mark

MartyNeilan wrote:

Peach wrote:Would like to solicit opinions of the wise folk(!) of TubeNet...

Suppose you have a piston contrabass with 3/4" bore and, assuming there's room and that you want one, where do you put a rotary 5th Valve?

Thanks very much!
MP

That is exactly what I have right now, I am so glad you asked!
Part of the fifth valve is currently on the horn. Part is in a box. And part still has yet to be purchased or fabricated.
Thanks for asking!

bloke wrote:Per usual, alliances/friendships/etc. are showing themselves in the form of "matter-of-facts".

Yet, mine was quite literally the most matter-of-fact of all.
Hmm...

Marty "looking at pencil sketches of a completed 5th valve assembly right now"

Has anyone tried a Gnagey, a 5XJ, and a G50 back to back to back? Very similar horns with 3 different locations...

LJV wrote:A lot of variables in play. Duh.
Tubas I have liked have had 5th valves after the main slide as well as before. In general, when the valve was before, I noticed that I like it when the 5th is very close to the 4th piston. No long dog leg, etc. Good response and less change in sound when the 5th is engaged.

This is very useful and just what I was looking for. "I think X and here's why..."

And yes, a whole lotta variables in play which is why I think:

TheHatTuba wrote:Has anyone tried a Gnagey, a 5XJ, and a G50 back to back to back? Very similar horns with 3 different locations...

...whilst very interesting, I don't think you could say that one of the above tubas played well or badly because of the 5th valve placement - there are just so many other small variables.

The only way to A-B(-C) it would be on the same tuba built with easily switchable 5th valve locations, some recording gear and a willing audience behind a screen to give feedback. That isn't going to happen anytime soon for me at least... Even if it did, all it might give you is the best place to put the 5th valve on that particular tuba.

5th before pistons clearly works well enough as evidenced by the 621 F and the numerous Rusk-cut tubas including Dale's fine looking one pictured. Horns which have that setup though don't seem to have room elsewhere in the open bugle to fit a 5th in, so it goes before the pistons. I wonder if anyone who voted for the leadpipe 5th as their preferred option would offer up a reason for their choice?

So, it does looks like before or after the main slide are the preferred options in general assuming there is room to put the valve 'anywhere' - as it stands...

Thanks,
Mal

General question that's not too far off topic: on the 6/4 York CC tubas now owned by the CSO, were the 5th valves original or added later?

bloke wrote:My BAT has a sixth valve.

Where SHOULD I have located it?

Don't get me started... ....
Mark

arpthark wrote:General question that's not too far off topic: on the 6/4 York CC tubas now owned by the CSO, were the 5th valves original or added later?

Factory.

.

LJV wrote:Tubas I have liked have had 5th valves after the main slide as well as before. In general, when the valve was before, I noticed that I like it when the 5th is very close to the 4th piston. No long dog leg, etc. Good response and less change in sound when the 5th is engaged.

(That's mostly for Marty...)

That was largely due to a combination of ergonomics and change in bore sizes. Original thought was to keep the fourth where it was, making it the fifth, and have a very short connector from the pistons (or even none at all with a step-up.) However, that put the valves too far over on the horn. Pushing the rotor further down and rotating it at a slight angle game me room to put the pistons where I needed. The rotor plumbing and linkage is a project for later, once work slows a bit and all the Christmas stuff is behind. It may ultimately be possible to stick the rotor immediately after the pistons with a bore stepup and have a different dogleg go from the rotor to the tuning slide. I will probably want to give what I have a try first and see what happens; the current fifth position leaves me the perfect "hole" (commented on by Joe in another post) to place my fifth valve loop.
After the tuning slide is not an option, due both to the diameter being too big for any valve readily available, and the horizontal slide. The horn starts getting bigger gradually but very soon and very steadily.
The instrument is still a work in progress, I have a few other tweaks in mind and may redo the leadpipe. (45SLP pipe has still not been ruled out but is over budget.)
So far, the overall sound and response is great, the low range speaks easily, and intonation is actually improved from before - possibly due to my attention to fixing little assembly issues I have found. "Dark chocolate" is a good description of the tone. Pitch is still not push-button-perfect top to bottom, but that would not be expected with a horn of this vintage. Slots are wide enough and even with four valves enough alternates and eay pulls are available to play every note in tune without major effort. The completed fifth valve will further enhance this.
Another option would just be to have long dogleg after the fourth and cut a fifth into the leadpipe, Rusk style, but I don't have a smaller bore rotor and have always preferred a larger fifth vs. one the same size or smaller. (YFB621 possibly excepted.)
Who knows, when all is said and done I may wake up and realize this horn is really too big and too much for what I do, and go after something Bruckner sized
Maybe not.

bloke wrote:My BAT has a sixth valve.

Where SHOULD I have located it?

Perfect example...!
When you added the 6th, did you ever consider putting it before the pistons or was after the main slide the only practical option?
As I recall you went to great lengths to get that valve in with replacing main slide and small branch.

Cheers,
MP