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Someone else's comment on the prospect of yet another copy of the CSO 6/4 York CC got me thinking. Those of you who have seen Abe Torchinsky's King - who has it, would it be a worthy subject for a copy as well, or maybe that's already been done? And what of those grand old King BBb rotary monsters? Anybody?

I think this sort of copying (like Kanstul is doing) makes a lot of sense. Re-creating something that has ceased to exist than only to make more of them and make them cheaper. Just as long as these are tubas that are worth re-creating. There are an awful lot of other choices out there right now.

Heh... maybe Zig can work up a rotary valve block and start pumping out some monster rotary tubas. He's already making rotary valves one at a time...why not just string 5 together? (yeah yeah yeah, if it were only that easy. )

cktuba wrote:King monster rotary BBb... This thread screams out for horn dorn.

You mean like this one?



Not the best example cosmetically, but a nice playing horn. This thing weighs a ton and I suspect that if one were to make a clone of it it wouldn't sound the same just because the metal would be much thinner. I no longer have it just because it was getting to be too much to lug around so I almost never used it.

Did the King Rotary Pit Tubas sound as good as the more conventionally configured model?

Slightly off topic, but I've always thought the Bill Bell King/H. N. White (not really the same as the Bill Bell Meinl) deserved a little more attention. . . and it would be up Kanstul's alley to reproduce another "classic American" horn! Of course, I've only played a couple of these, but I haven't found a bad one. . .

Here's a pic of Bell's personal King that Mike Lynch was kind enough to let me honk on for a little while!



There are some definite similarities to that Monster rotary BBb in the wrap.

--T. J.

The "original" MW "Bell" model WAS a copy of Bill's King. Bill was very happy that his horn was being reproduced and while it had some "improvements" it was not the "same" as the originals. The Kings were all hand made and each was a bit different - very "personal" tubas. I wish I had one.

Lee Stofer thinks a copy of the BBb monsters was made - once - and that Jake tried it and had a very happy smile afterward.

IF Kanstul were to reproduce those instruments and achieved the same sort of results as they did with the York 33 Eb there would be some very fine instruments around. A couple weeks ago i was at Lee's and was able to do a one on one comparison of a York original and a Kanstul. To call the Kanstul a copy would be an unjust comparison. If I had not already bought 3 instruments and totally blown my budget the Kanstul would be here. The new ones are better and for most players one would make a very good all round instrument.

One can hope but I doubt we will see the old Kings reappear in Kanstul form.

Ken Herrick wrote:A couple weeks ago i was at Lee's and was able to do a one on one comparison of a York original and a Kanstul.

That's a cat best left in the bag for now, I think, Ken. While at Lee's this summer I spent some very pleasant time on one of the new BBb Kanstul's--sans the comparison, of course. I'm still contemplating acquiring one. I was also amazed by some of the work he had scheduled.

Ken Herrick wrote:The "original" MW "Bell" model WAS a copy of Bill's King. Bill was very happy that his horn was being reproduced and while it had some "improvements" it was not the "same" as the originals. The Kings were all hand made and each was a bit different - very "personal" tubas. I wish I had one.

Lee Stofer thinks a copy of the BBb monsters was made - once - and that Jake tried it and had a very happy smile afterward.

IF Kanstul were to reproduce those instruments and achieved the same sort of results as they did with the York 33 Eb there would be some very fine instruments around. A couple weeks ago i was at Lee's and was able to do a one on one comparison of a York original and a Kanstul. To call the Kanstul a copy would be an unjust comparison. If I had not already bought 3 instruments and totally blown my budget the Kanstul would be here. The new ones are better and for most players one would make a very good all round instrument.

One can hope but I doubt we will see the old Kings reappear in Kanstul form.

I asked on Kanstul's Facebook page if they were considering producing a rotary valve tuba and they are not.

Not until they know they can turn a profit on them, at least.

Good luck Ian...

If I see one I will let you know.

the elephant wrote:I would like to see them *clone* an Olds Ultratone...

An Ultraclone?

That is Joe Tarto playing the King Pit Tuba named after him, from what I undertand. I beleive the March"Big Joe the Tuba" was written for him byEdwin Franco Goldman. Don Butterfield said that he owned one of these and eventually donated it to his old high school in Washington State. It looks like Bill Bell playing his double tuba next to him. Must've been a fun section to play in!

Frank

I believe that "Big Joe The Tuba" was a "one off" design made for Mr. Tarto; a one-of a kind, unlike the rotary-valved "pit tubas" that King sold in the '30s. Brian Nalepka owns "Big Joe" now, having studied with Mr. Tarto at one time.

The march entitled "Big Joe The Tuba" was actually written by Paul Lavalle, conductor of the Cities' Service "Band of America" and Joe Tarto. The piece always made me think someone took "Them Basses" and wrote it in reverse! Great march!

Whoops! You are right Paul, it was LaValle!
We had some pictures like this in the archives at Clifton High School.
Promotional shots of Paul Lavalle conducting "Big Joe".
Saul Kay had brought the City Services Band there to perform a concert back in the day.

Frank

Big Joe the Tuba has both Joe and Paul Lavalle's names on the published edition. They were lifelong friends having played in Vincent Lopez' dance band back when Paul Lavalle was Joe Usifer doubling clarinet & alto sax.

Joe actually wrote and arranged the march as Lavalle was looking for a way to feature Joe and his modified pit model King with the BoA - mostly because of the visual aspects for the television show. Anyone familiar with Joe Tarto's composing/arranging style will find Joe's handiwork throughout the march. I knew both of these men - my kids wore crib outfits given to them by Joe and Goodie Tarto and I toured the country with Lavalle in 1976 as the band's tuba player.

BTW Joe did most of his work on big Conns.

Regarding those old King rotary valve CC "Bell" models: there probably are not more than 30 of them that were ever made, and close inspection shows they were cobbled together from bin components existing at that time . I qualify this next as second hand information - I did not study with Joe Novotny, but a couple guys who did who asked Joe about those horns (he owned one of them and played in the NY Phil for many years as arguably Bell's most oustanding orchestral tuba student) learned that all of them came down through Bell to his students, and most of them weren't that great. Torchinsky, Novotny and Bill Barber got the better ones as I understand it. Don Harry played Bell's horn during his studies with the old master and could tell you about it. The point here is that not enough of them were ever made to achieve any kind of manufacturing consistency. I'm sure the fabrication jigs (if there were any) are long lost by now.

The first models of the CC MW Bell model came through with mechanical linkage and were heavier than the Kings which all had string linkage. The bore size is completely different too. I tried one in late 1967 and disliked it.

When HN White was alive and later on when Mrs. White ran the company "personal" models continued to be made. Besides Bell there were Harry James trumpets (non-production made only for him) and Tommy Dorsey probably played every trombone in the catalog at one time or another. That ended when the Seeburg juke box company bought the company.

Mark Heter

Regarding those old King rotary valve CC "Bell" models: there probably are not more than 30 of them that were ever made, and close inspection shows they were cobbled together from bin components existing at that time

In that case a certain company is carrying on in a time-honored tradition.....

Here's my vote for a horn to copy...good for summer use to avoid playing sharp.

I own and play alot on one of the Bb's, it has the straight up and down valve bridge like Lew's former horn. When I got it the condition of the horn was suprisingly good. NO dents. very recent valve job, and it played pretty well. Until I put it with a tuner and found it had been shortened to somewhere around B natural and the slides had been shortened as well, the fourth cobbled together with three different sizes of tubing all smaller bore than the first three. So we made a longer leadpipe, rebuilt the short slides back to original and it sat at my house until the Candlelight Orchestra at Disney fired up. I had played the show six nights a week for the preceeding eight years and since they kept calling me back I assumed that they liked the sound etc. By the end of the third show I had heard from most of the brass, including the Herald trumpets, cast choir members, and even people in the audience. It made quite an impression. But it is as heavy as any horn I've played and is so tall that you really don't hear yourself that well so I didn't get what all the feedback was about and eventually sold it.The following year I purchased a CD of a non Disney orchestra that I had played it with just to put any doubts/regrets I had about selling it to bed. The sound on the recording was shockingly better than on all the previous recordings. I bought it back that day and played it on the concert the next night.The point is, they're all very old, and in many cases have had bad repair wok or been really abused, or in most cases the valves are shot.Mine plays very well now but I tend to treat it like a Dusenberg automobile, handleing it with extreem care. I'm 60 so it doesn't have to last forever but if Mr Kanstul built a copy of it I'd be first in line, with cash. If the market is there maybe he will but the hard sell would be that there are really few to try that have been restored properly so people don't have experience with them. I played Joe Novotny's C and it was fantastic.Maybe by my next lifetime. Ed

I had a King Monster like pictured; I wish I still had it. It was heavier than a Volkswagon, but DAMN that thing played! I sold it because, with the recording bell, I could hardly ever use it. Now, you can buy a straight bell from Stofer and I kick myself constantly for not having my beast. Nimble, huge and interesting sound, fastest valves on the planet, and unthinking intonation. Damn I miss that sucker!

The upright bell Lee Stofer sold me for my Martin has made me a very happy musician. Worth every penny and Lee is great guy to do business with. Those old Kings could be given a new lease on life the same way; too bad there aren't too many of them around.

Mark Heter