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As I was playing the ending of Silent Night for Tuba Christmas, I've been trying to keep a good sound with those low notes.

My question is what suggestion you can offer to sustain playing those low notes below the low BBb for at least a few whole notes. I know I need to relax my lips. Any other advice for better playing the pedals ?

You could have a third lung surgically implanted!

But seriously, breathing exercises, long tones and simply practicing it. Good luck!

That's my New Year's resolution, Jordan, to keep working on those long pedal tones as you've suggested.

..I like he lung idea

Buy a subcontrabass tuba

The problem is that the flow rate increases the lower you play. During some experiments, Mr. Jacobs' flow rate, on low F at 100db (deemed to be the equivilent of fortissimo) was measured at 140 liters of air per minute.

Interestingly, the flow rate of the all of the principal brass players of the CSO was the same on middle C.

I don't know what the flow rate on pedal Bb is, at any level but you'll be lucky to sustain it for more that 10 or 15 seconds regardless.

The above suggestions seem to address your question adequately.

I would suggest that a better question would be, "When is it appropriate to add the pedal tone, in performing music?"

KiltieTuba wrote:

TubaRay wrote:The above suggestions seem to address your question adequately.

I would suggest that a better question would be, "When is it appropriate to add the pedal tone, in performing music?"

ALL THE TIME

As much fun as that might be(I can assure you there was someone at yesterday's TubaChristmas, in Fort Worth, Tx., who must have had a grand time), I believe that much of the time this serious messes with the intended texture of the music. In my view, it is most appropriate to use when there is an obvious organ-like texture. Other times the chord is voiced in a much lighter texture. To add the pedal at that time just destroys that lightness.

This being posted before the TNFJ, I know there will be those who disagree, but so be it.

KiltieTuba wrote: This is what the general consensus is among the board.

Speak for yourself.

I have to say that listening to recordings of the best British brass bands there are times when the lower octave is put in where it doesn't really suit the music.

These guys are really good at it and I am in awe of their super human powers but piano music doesn't have the left hand playing crashing octaves at the bottom of the keyboard all the way through every piece, orchestral string bass parts are not permanently in the lowest fifth on the E string etc.

Sometimes it really adds to the music but not always.

I also would like a third (and fourth) lung for greater pedal note sustain. I'm only a little guy and if I haven't got an offsider to cross breath with things don't go so well. I'm slowly getting better at fading out and sneaking back in again but not that good.

Merry etc. etc.

Gerard

KiltieTuba wrote: I think we have the obligation to drop things whenever we can.

I believe you and would not get along well playing in the same tuba section.

KiltieTuba wrote: I only ever play the pedal range if there are other players present. It doesn't make sense to do so if I'm the only one.

I can fully agree with this statement.

Talking about bass tubas pitched in F, Cecil Forsyth wrote that "below [the fundamental pitch] there are some few notes which can be got by means of a very loose lip, but their quality is, as a rule, miserable and their intonation unsatisfactory. Still they are played."

At least by 1914, composers and orchestrators seemed to be very aware of the tuba's (in all its forms) pedal register AND, in description of the instrument's overall timbre, the word "organ" is even thrown around a few times. In that same orchestration text, Forsyth does not spare that the BBb tuba does have the fundamental Bb pitch in its compass, but describes it as "possible but very difficult". Fast forward almost a century, and we, as performers, with our modern instruments, are conciously dismissing the written part. Whenever I observe performers purposely straying from the ink*, I like the fact that thought is being put into the playing. I'd much rather have that happen to a piece of mine than the folks playing a poorly-written part and staying quiet about it.

Whenever I see myself wanting to mess with octaves or something like that, I want to always ask what my motivation is. In my experience, vanity and bravado will sometimes be my guides.


* talking about the effect this has on a piece's performance, there are always much more important things that I will pay attention to...

termite wrote:I have to say that listening to recordings of the best British brass bands there are times when the lower octave is put in where it doesn't really suit the music.

These guys are really good at it and I am in awe of their super human powers but piano music doesn't have the left hand playing crashing octaves at the bottom of the keyboard all the way through every piece, orchestral string bass parts are not permanently in the lowest fifth on the E string etc.

Sometimes it really adds to the music but not always.

Gerard

Agreed that it can most certainly be overdone but don't forget a brass band has a lower overall pitch available to it to an orchestra. Violins and pics can play maybe a good couple of octaves above the cornet section of a band.

What I've noticed from many players trying to play pedal tones, is that they seem to forget that the lower we play, the sharper we get. If my horn is tuned dead nut on at Bb in the staff, I've got to do some slide pulling on the sustained pedal BBb. I've even cheated and used my 2nd valve and that is more in tune. Use your ear, it's an amazing tool for us musicians.
As far as when to use a pedal: If there is going to be a two octave gap between the bottom two notes of the chord, it's probably best that we dont hit the cellar on the last note.

Mister Stone wrote:What I've noticed from many players trying to play pedal tones, is that they seem to forget that the lower we play, the sharper we get. If my horn is tuned dead nut on at Bb in the staff, I've got to do some slide pulling on the sustained pedal BBb. I've even cheated and used my 2nd valve and that is more in tune. Use your ear, it's an amazing tool for us musicians.

I've never experienced this at all. I don't notice my pedals being any sharper than the octaves above them and certainly don't feel the need to add valves. Maybe I'm an odd bird, but I don't know anyone else who does this, either.

I have been following this thread since the beginning but remain confused -- possibly about terminology. However, in the Tuba Christmas arrangement of "Silent Night" the lowest note (and final note in the piece) appears to be a C natural just ABOVE the fifth ledger line below the staff. That is, just ABOVE the pedal BBb. So it isn't truly a pedal note, is it?

The BBb tuba pedal tones would be the BBb on the fifth line below the staff, and then the A, Ab, G, Gb, F, and Fb (E) BELOW THAT. (See for, for example, http://music.unt.edu/tuba/documents/low ... ngsBBb.pdf and http://www.norlanbewley.com/tuba/fingering-tuba-1.htm.) So I'm thinking that what's being described isn't really what are the the genuine "pedal" tones but the "low" tones above the pedal range. Or have I missed something? Maybe this is just a standard terminological ambiguity.

But in any event, I have to agree with Todd, at least to the degree that when I have found tones in the very low range to be sharp, this has pretty clearly been a consequence of poor embouchure (including being relaxed and keeping an "open throat") rather than a feature of the instrument that should be addressed through alternate fingerings. Of course, every instrument is slightly different. But my guess would be that if your low Bb (third space below the staff) is in tune, so should the one below it be -- if you have the correct embouchure. In general, if the lower you play, the sharper you get, then the lower you play, the more you need to work on your embouchure, rather than looking for alternate fingerings.

In terms of sustaining any of those notes (either slightly above the true pedal BBb or below it), good luck.

KiltieTuba wrote:Below the pedal BBb is the double pedal range. Low F (four lines down) is the pedal range since that would be the pedal FF on the F tuba.

You will be glad to know that earlier this month, five pages of discussion were devoted to an exhaustive discussion of this very matter: Cf. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47557

A couple comments:

• "Below the pedal BBb ..." In this context, the doubled upper case BBb means to me that you're using "English notation" for the note below the 2nd ledger line below the bass staff.
• "... since that would be the pedal FF on the F tuba." ... So, we surmise that you really may have meant BBBb in the previous statement. One widely held notion of "pedal" would start there and go down, for a BBb tuba, but you're welcome to attach whatever meaning you want to it, as we discovered in the referenced thread that the term is useless for communication.
• Though not as useless as "low Bb".

"... at least to me"

"you're welcome to attach whatever meaning you want to it, as we discovered in the referenced thread that the term is useless for communication"

"When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.' " (L. Carroll)