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Discuss.

The same. But seriously, there are other great concertos.

I never played it that seriously and I'm doin fine.

Everybody would be playing the Hindemith Sonata for auditions instead. Say it ain't so!!!

Life without Vaughen Williams tuba concerto is just find, as far as I'm concerned. Yes, I have the music. No, I don't spend much time with it. Yes, I have performed the 2nd mvt., with pipe organ accompaniment. I did this at my home church(3 times, in one morning), about 5 years ago. I like the 2nd mvt. I can take or leave the other two.

TubaRay wrote:I like the 2nd mvt. I can take or leave the other two.

+1

It's beautiful! I love listening to it.

For a lot of people it has worn smooth, but that doesn't mean it has become unimportant. Something else would perhaps have been written that would have inspired as much effort on the part of both players and composers. Tuba players would have found things to play. But it's the one that came along in fact to start a lot of other balls rolling. So I'm grateful for it.

And quite a few tuba players are spending hard earned money on admission and road trips to go find out what Gene Pokorny is going to make of it this spring.

I'm thinking the question is really, What if it hadn't been written, performed, and/or published?

No doubt the literature would not have expanded so greatly, so quickly. I guess I really wonder why people didn't hit up Brahms, Strauss, Tchaikovsky, Liszt, Barber, Gershwin, et al, for a concerto. Yes, the instruments were not of the quality, and undoubtedly the players not as skilled, as some today. (SOME...) But, there was a certain amount of technique happening, or some of those licks wouldn't have been written.

Bloke wouldn't have a secret, waiting to be popped into the free world's awareness at an appropriate time.

We wouldn't have the "Besson thing that Jake owned" to ponder.

The concert harmonica would be considered a standard collegiate major instrument.

eupher61 wrote:I'm thinking the question is really, What if it hadn't been written, performed, and/or published?

No doubt the literature would not have expanded so greatly, so quickly. I guess I really wonder why people didn't hit up Brahms, Strauss, Tchaikovsky, Liszt, Barber, Gershwin, et al, for a concerto. Yes, the instruments were not of the quality, and undoubtedly the players not as skilled, as some today. (SOME...) But, there was a certain amount of technique happening, or some of those licks wouldn't have been written.

Bloke wouldn't have a secret, waiting to be popped into the free world's awareness at an appropriate time.

We wouldn't have the "Besson thing that Jake owned" to ponder.

The concert harmonica would be considered a standard collegiate major instrument.

Gasp!

Does this also mean we wouldn't have the lacquer/silver debate? Or the BBb/CC argument?

My, oh my! Things sure could have been bleak w/o Vaughan Williams tuba concerto. Whatever would we have done?

KiltieTuba wrote:Not a fan of it, I prefer the Penderecki Capriccio

Only if you take everything down an octave.

Fortunately, I became a fan of Vaughan Williams before even knowing of the existence of the tuba concerto. I was in my dormant period between my first year of college, after which I stopped playing tuba, and when I started playing tuba again eight years later. I was introduced to RVW through his Second Symphony, Fourth Symphony, and the Tallis Fantasia.

When I heard the Tuba Concerto, I was a little disappointed.

But when I hear its premiere performance (or, rather, a recording made the following day), I realize that RVW didn't necessarily have much to work with. What might have happened had his knowledge of tuba performance been shaped by Fletcher? We should perhaps be thankful that it wasn't--the concerto might be so aimed at virtuosity that only a handful of people in the world could attempt it.

I like the way Bevan characterizes it (my paraphrase): We thought the RVW was not so good, but what has come along since then has made us realize that maybe the RVW is better than we thought. At least it's accessible by audiences, to a degree, which works like the Penderecki are not. Is the Williams really better? I rather prefer the Gregson, but Gregson isn't a big enough name to widely penetrate the orchestra scene, and the orchestra version is less well-known than the band version.

The Tuba Concerto is certainly not RVW's best work, but we get more mileage from having a mid-grade work from a great composer versus a strong work from an obscure composer. I wish RVW had attempted it in the late 20's or early 30's, when he was at the height of his powers, pumping works such as Job, A Masque for Dancing, Sancta Civitas, and the Fourth Symphony. He had become a little more relaxed by the 50's--he was in his 80's by that time--and his works of that period reflect it.

We really suffer from having no classical (i.e., as exemplifed by Mozart) literature for the tuba. We have very little we can give to amateurs and students that is appropriate for learning and also sufficiently serious for performance. The Vaughan Williams is about right there, except that it's written for a small F tuba and is too high for American students and amateurs. I'm not sure we have much to offer in its place, however, that has that accessibility.

Rick "not wanting to give up any of our limited repertoire" Denney

bloke wrote:
(hint: Find someone with a recording of the LAPO radio broadcast of Roger Bobo playing it with Esa-Pekka Salonen conducting. THEN, come back here to TubeNet and criticize the piece - as it is popular to do.)

Where can I find that recording? I searched google and amazon with no luck.

The RVW is great. The challenge of working out the most well known (in my opinion) piece of Tuba music is see how well you can hone it. Not just being able to get through it, but getting the most out of every phrase. This is especially true in the opening of the 3rd movement with that ascending flourish.

Do you think this same conversation is being had elsewhere on a French Horn forum about the 1st Strauss Horn Concerto in Eb?

The Strauss horn concerto is kinda ok (though compared to the RVW....); I'd still pick that anyday and might actually have a reason to work it up soon (damnit 1281, when will you get here??!??! ).

snorlax wrote:Perhaps people would be more positive towards the piece, even if it isn't a magnum opus, if they heard a performance as the composer intended rather than the dreadfully error-laden edition that people buy and play under the assumption that it reflects reality.

Do you really think it's that different that the average listener would suddenly "love" the piece? Sorry, but I just don't agree. It's a pretty average piece of music unless you really, really like pentatonic scales.

snorlax wrote:Additionally, is it just me or is that cello performance listless? The orchestra covers it up at the most inopportune times, the beginning is overwrought, and the middle is under-wrought. A most perfunctory reading, I'd say. Other opinions?

I'd say that performance suffers from the same problems as any performance with a tuba soloist. The piece is dreadfully over-scored. It's almost as bad as the Koussevitsky double bass concerto, but not quite.

[/quote]I'd say that performance suffers from the same problems as any performance with a tuba soloist. The piece is dreadfully over-scored. It's almost as bad as the Koussevitsky double bass concerto, but not quite.[/quote]

Here's a clip from 1929 of double bass virtuoso Koussevitsky playing his own concerto. With the piano reduction, the double bass part is much more clear. In those days, the frequent slides from note to note were common in string performances. (Koussevitsky, of course, was a very fine conductor.)

Ace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fTexStj ... plpp_video" target="_blank" target="_blank

knuxie wrote:

The Tuba Concerto is certainly not RVW's best work, but we get more mileage from having a mid-grade work from a great composer versus a strong work from an obscure composer.

This is the saddest truth I have ever read here at Tubenet. Thanks, Rick.

Sorry, Ken. I didn't mean to make you sad.

Rick "who was actually comparing to Gregson, whose concerto seems more characteristic and enjoyable than the RVW, not that it matters" Denney

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:

snorlax wrote:Perhaps people would be more positive towards the piece, even if it isn't a magnum opus, if they heard a performance as the composer intended rather than the dreadfully error-laden edition that people buy and play under the assumption that it reflects reality.

Do you really think it's that different that the average listener would suddenly "love" the piece? Sorry, but I just don't agree. It's a pretty average piece of music unless you really, really like pentatonic scales.

I'd say it's certainly possible. That transformative performance by Roger Bobo that Joe describes would have been based on the correct version. Bobo likely would not have tried to make it as pretty as Fletcher did, and might have let the goofiness and humor come through a bit more.

It's not easy to know, though, without having heard the original unpublished version performed by a master of solo performance such as Bobo.

Rick "who would like to have heard Bobo's interpretation" Denney

Bobo would've probably played the entire first mov. legato. At least that's how he taught in masterclass some years ago.