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Everyone in my band (including the directors) refer to the tubas as C instruments even though we use king 2341s. Their logic is that when a tuba plays a C, it sounds like a C, and same with the rest of the band instruments, Alto sax's C sounds like an Eb, Trumpet's C sounds like a Bb and so on. Is there something that I'm missing? Because I've always thought that I played a BBb tuba and that the fundamental determined the key of the instrument.

NO NO NO!!!

This is a complete misnomer based on ignorance. The correct term is "concert pitch." The tuba is a concert pitch instrument. Regardless of the "key" the tuba is in, the music is written for the pitch the composer desires, and it's up to the player in the context of his/her instrument to figure out what fingerings and embouchure produce that pitch.

This is in contrast to "transposed" pitch, where an arbitrary fingering, such as open valves for brass, 3-fingers for clarinet, etc., is designated a pitch, such as middle C on the treble clef, and everything is written around that, regardless of what pitch that particular fingering actually produces at concert pitch. So, for example, for "horn in F" what is written as a middle C actually sounds the F below that, etc.

Now, that is in contrast to what the horn is called, again, arbitrarily, so that what ever pitch the open valve, or 3-fingers, etc., produces is what that instrument is; a completely different concept.

A significant exception to tubas being written in concert pitch is British brass band music, where all valved brass are written in transposed notation, and the bass trombone part, because of the archaic G-bass trombone, is written in concert pitch.

Thank you that clears things up!

bloke wrote:- Eb instruments SOUND an Eb when they play their "note" C.
- Bb instruments SOUND a Bb when they play their "note" C.
- F instruments SOUND an F when they play their "note" C.
- Db instruments SOUND a Db when they play their "note" C.

ONLY if the instrument plays transposed pitch notation music.

In standard concert pitch notation, for example, bottom of the bass clef F is played as follows, of course:
BBb tuba: open
CC tuba: 1st
Eb tuba: 1+3 or 4
F tuba: open

Something similar, some people (including other tuba players) think i'm a really good site reader because i can "transpose" BBb tuba music on a CC tuba I've even heard this from high school directors.....

LJV wrote:A clear gap of knowledge being repeated/inflicted in her basic methods classes.

Indeed!!!

bloke wrote:ANY instrument whereby the "note" C is played and the "sound" C is sounded is a "C" instrument. "Eb" and "Bb" Saxophones don't have any "open" notes, and nor do "Bb", "A", or "Eb" clarinets or "F" English horns. The length of a column of air is not what defines an instrument as a "C", "Eb", or "what have you" instrument. Again, what defines an instrument as a "__" instrument is the SOUND that comes out when the NOTE "C" is played.

What we have here is a definitional situation as I referred to earlier. The only reason the note is "C" is because we have defined a particular frequency as a particular note, and as a corollary, have defined a particular fingering and embouchure as producing that frequency.

I think they just mean do/doh as in do-re-mi. But of course, to say every instrument's do is C is absolutely wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solf%C3%A8ge" target="_blank" target="_blank

iiipopes wrote:...because of the archaic G-bass trombone, is written in concert pitch.

There is a G-bass trombone part, in Schoenberg's Gurre Lieder, that is written in G transposed. I can assure you that it sounded strange when we played it concert pitch...

I once had a church organist write me a part in transposed Bb, because she thought I played a Bb tuba. When I told her my tuba was an F tuba, I thought her head would explode. When I told her all tubas played concert pitch, she understood. what had confused her was writing for the Bb trumpets and the F horn. Of course, she wrote the part for the Bb trombone in concert pitch.

It's the vast treble-clef conspiracy, I tell ya...

Rick "just write it the same way you would for the organ" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:

Rick "just write it the same way you would for the organ" Denney

"pull out all the stops, and stomp on those pedals!"

Rick Denney wrote:It's the vast treble-clef conspiracy, I tell ya...

Indeed it is. Saxhorns and saxophones, and the beginnings of British brass band music, were written in transposed notation for ease of teaching amateur groups.

iiipopes wrote:

Rick Denney wrote:It's the vast treble-clef conspiracy, I tell ya...

Indeed it is. Saxhorns and saxophones, and the beginnings of British brass band music, were written in transposed notation for ease of teaching amateur groups.

Did you think I was guessing?

Rick " " Denney

Rick Denney wrote:

iiipopes wrote:

Rick Denney wrote:It's the vast treble-clef conspiracy, I tell ya...

Indeed it is. Saxhorns and saxophones, and the beginnings of British brass band music, were written in transposed notation for ease of teaching amateur groups.

Did you think I was guessing?
Rick " " Denney

No, just agreeing with you.

TheHatTuba wrote:Something similar, some people (including other tuba players) think i'm a really good site reader because i can "transpose" BBb tuba music on a CC tuba I've even heard this from high school directors.....

I heard this exact same thing from my College Band director. Which also resulted in several students patting me on the back.

OK, so let me ask a serious question (I'm a pianist, so I know little about tuba playing):

When playing the same notated music (notated in concert pitch) on different horns (BBb vs. CC vs. Eb vs. F, or even euphonium in Bb), which of these two thought processes does a tuba player use:

1. You know the fingerings and lip positions for the different instrument. So if the score asks for E, and you are on a CC tuba, you know that this is 2nd partial, valve 1+2, while on a BBb tuba it is 2nd partial valve 2, and on an F tuba it is 1st partial valve 2. But you always think of it as an E. Fundamentally, you have learned the fingerings for four or five different instruments. ... or ...

2. You transpose in your mind. So if your main instrument is the CC tuba, and today you are playing a BBb horn, you know that you need to transpose everything up a full step. You see an E in the score, you think F#, which is obviously 2nd partial valve 2, and low and behold the sound of the E comes out. Similarly if you happen to have an F tuba in your lap, you have to transpose the music down a fourth, so for the E you play the Bb, which is obviously 1st partial valve 2, and again everything works fine.

As a pianist, I only know about transposing. If a singer wants to do the "revenge aria of the Queen of the Night", but can't reach the highest stuff, I just need to play everything a third lower, which is done by deliberately playing different notes. It's not a different fingering (which usually stays the same, except for some fingers being better for black vs. white keys). How to tuba players do it?

Chen wrote: But of course, to say every instrument's do is C is absolutely wrong.

Unless you use a system where do is just a note name. In that case, do is always C!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solf%C3%A8 ... lf.C3.A8ge" target="_blank

Fundamentally, you have learned the fingerings for four or five different instruments.

This is the case.
I believe that in America tuba players start off learning concert pitch fingerings on BBb tuba reading bass clef.
Then when they add or switch to a different tuba, usually CC and later F tuba they learn new fingerings as though learning a new instrument.

Some people who play BBb tuba could pick up a CC and "transpose" to get the different fingerings but many cannot because you have to pitch the notes on tuba like a singer, it's not just the fingerings.

In my case as an Australian who first learnt to play BBb tuba from treble clef in the brass band system, I had to learn a new set of fingerings when I learnt to play from concert pitch bass clef parts. I now have two sets of fingerings in my head for the same instrument.

The pitch of woodwind instruments IS defined by the actual sounding pitch of a standard C major scale fingering. The fingering for C varies from instrument to instrument as does F but D, E, G, A and B are pretty much the same. This applies to recorder, flute, saxophone and clarinet (once you get over the break). I haven't played oboe or bassoon so I don't know if it holds true for them.

Thus woodwind players doubling on flute, clarinet and saxophone, are, to a large degree using a common set of fingerings on all instruments in the same way that a brass band player is using the same trumpet fingerings on whatever instrument they pick up. (Except for bass trombone of course).

You can teach someone fingerings to make BBb tuba function as a concert pitch reading instrument but it is still definitely a BBb tuba.
The valves are transposing buttons. When you push down the second valve the instrument becomes a tuba in A. Instead of the bugle calls in Bb major it played on open you get them in A major and so on with the different combinations.

Regards

Gerard

ralphbsz wrote:OK, so let me ask a serious question (I'm a pianist, so I know little about tuba playing):

When playing the same notated music (notated in concert pitch) on different horns (BBb vs. CC vs. Eb vs. F, or even euphonium in Bb), which of these two thought processes does a tuba player use:

1. You know the fingerings and lip positions for the different instrument. So if the score asks for E, and you are on a CC tuba, you know that this is 2nd partial, valve 1+2, while on a BBb tuba it is 2nd partial valve 2, and on an F tuba it is 1st partial valve 2. But you always think of it as an E. Fundamentally, you have learned the fingerings for four or five different instruments. ... or ...

2. You transpose in your mind. So if your main instrument is the CC tuba, and today you are playing a BBb horn, you know that you need to transpose everything up a full step. You see an E in the score, you think F#, which is obviously 2nd partial valve 2, and low and behold the sound of the E comes out. Similarly if you happen to have an F tuba in your lap, you have to transpose the music down a fourth, so for the E you play the Bb, which is obviously 1st partial valve 2, and again everything works fine.

As a pianist, I only know about transposing. If a singer wants to do the "revenge aria of the Queen of the Night", but can't reach the highest stuff, I just need to play everything a third lower, which is done by deliberately playing different notes. It's not a different fingering (which usually stays the same, except for some fingers being better for black vs. white keys). How to tuba players do it?

For me, the answer was always "1." I can't imagine trying to play differently pitched tubas under the "2." method, and none of my teachers ever would have tolerated it.

I assume the answer is the same for most other tuba players.