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I was playing my Besson New Standard Eb today and went to empty water from the 3rd valve slide and was struck by how long it is and akward to pull out and re insert. It does not have a spit valve and I know I can have one fitted so my question is nothing to do with removing water.
The 3rd valve slide has approx 9" of pull on it the 1st slide has 6" and the main slide only 2".
It is a compensated instrument and so is designed to be played with out having to pull slides on the fly.
In all the years that I have owned it I never have had to adjust the 3rd slide by more than half an inch and never have had to adjust the first or second slide.

So why all the extra tubing on the 3rd and 1st slides?

What purpose does it serve?

Is it to restrict the bore to produce a venturi effect on the airstream as it enters and leaves the valve?

My old Yamaha 3/4 was similar where it had a ridiculous amount of slide tubing...just increasing the likelihood of slowing down my tuning. Yamaha copies Besson in their models, so I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't really a good reason. I wouldn't look into it too much..as long as you like your horn's sound.

I know of many tuba players who chop their 1st and 3rd slides at least an inch. At the same time they vent their valves. How have you modified your horn?

Kevin

KCarubia wrote:
I know of many tuba players who chop their 1st and 3rd slides at least an inch. At the same time they vent their valves. How have you modified your horn?

Kevin

I have not modified it at all and have no plans to. I was intrigued by how long they are and how much extra metal was used for no benefit that I can see or hear but maybe there is a reason for all the hidden slide tubing.
I love the sound I get from this tuba it is a very forgiving tuba that never bites me.

Those slides are super long just to 'fill' the space inside the outer tubes. You can cut the slides to whatever length you are comfortable with and then insert the cut pieces back into the outer tubes.

My Besson New Standard is the BBb equivalent of your Eb. It has a very long pull also. Same goes for my Besson 981 Eb.

I don’t know whether it was the purpose of this design, but when I practice in the range right above the open pedal, I in certain keys can improve the intonation by pulling the 3rd slide & the 3rd compensating slide so that they lower the instrument two whole steps rather than the standard minor third. Takes some re-fingering also.

Klaus

Check the archives for "Swedish fingering system". A century ago it was not unusual for brass instruments to have the third valve produce a major third instead of a minor third. Apparently that system was still in use until fairly recently in Sweden. The long third-valve slide on some euphoniums makes that system possible, and for certain (rare) passages it may even be convenient.

All of the fingering charts in Paul Bernard's "Methode Complete pour Trombone Basse, Tuba, Saxhorns Basses et Contrebasse" published by LeDuc are for long third-valve tuning.

On something with at least 4 valves, I cannot see how a 2 tone 3rd valve is not useful; especially on a non-comp 4 valve horn.

sousaphone68 wrote:It is a compensated instrument and so is designed to be played with out having to pull slides on the fly.

I hate to tell you, but there is no such animal.

First of all, if it is a four valve horn, the compensation makes it really a double horn, so that when you use the fourth valve, the instrument "compensates" for having depressed the fourth valve, adding additional length to each valve to help with the key change. Think of the difference of the slide lengths on both sides of a double horn. That's what four valve compensation is.

Three valve compensation DOES try to make up the difference needed when valves are used together, BUT
the overtone series is not perfect.

Equal Temperament only makes each note equally out-of-tune.

Major thirds, minor thirds, and sixths need adjustment to be in Just Intonation.

Use your ears, not your eyes.

First and third valve slides need some length,
Just look at a pro level trumpet and extrapolate four times that.

I was not trying to resurrect the pull for tone etc debate and have no wish too.
A more considered statement maybe as follows the design and ergonomics of my two upright Eb basses do not allow for manipulation of slides while playing. The left hand is required to operate the 4th valve.
I find my two tubas to be well behaved and the professionals that direct the bands I play with and the pro`s that used to teach me all had no complaints about the intonation of the instruments that I own because like the majority of musicians I over the years have either adopted alternate fingerings for any bum notes eg the G at the top of the stave is flat when played open and I find it easier to play it 1&2 rather than lip it and its tone is better.
For other notes like A on the bottom of the stave I have to lip it up as I have not found a suitable alternative.

From the other thread about slide pulling I now understand that my alternate is similar to other players who choose to push or pull a slide to achieve the same effect.