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Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:21 pm**

I have a 5v cc Alexander 163 (w/ "modern" (?) receiver which is adjustable and very heavy-see previous owner for details) and a Conn 7B mouthpiece (gold due to metal allergies). The three of us fight. My upper lip gets pinched between the sharp rim of the 7B and my pointy pointy canine teeth making slurring difficult. I use the lightest pressure I can without air leaks (nothing like pain to force good embouchure).

I had a nameless wonder (looked like a Perantucci -very round outside w/ a couple rings cut in) which was a joy to play. Now I'm starting to wear through the plating on the 7B (which was my backup) too. The sound I get with the 7B feels somewhat choked/stuffy by comparison. If I had the nameless one replated (gold), it would cost as much or more than a new mouthpiece (and would still have no name).

I currently play with a large group (c. 60 players), a small brass choir (1 tuba), sub with a rockin' street/party/funeral/wedding/??? mostly-brass band (1 sousaphone), sub with a few quintets, & play tuba duets. All this fun requires agility in the high range, focused delicacy in the low range, organ-like presence, and yes, lots of practice.

I think I'm looking for a larger (cup diameter) mouthpiece which has a more open backbore. Funnel shape seems fine (french horn is easier than trumpet for me if that helps). I've been wading through the Denis Wick & Perantucci mouthpiece descriptions (though would be open to other suggestions) and have come up with some possibilities. PT48, 50, 88, Denis Wick 3XL (large barrel? -maybe won't work for my horn), & 2XL. I don't have "huge lips" but also would like to be able to have an edge when I want one (not always mellow) - see thread about the PT50 vs PT88.
Any thoughts, suggestions, ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:21 am**

David Houser of Houser Mouthpieces can duplicate you current mouthpiece in stainless steel and make it with a specially coated rim that is better than gold for allergies.

http://www.housermouthpiece.net/h-kote- ... ating.html

One of the best things about working with a Houser or Sellsmenberger mouthpiece is that they have a great pdf file that diagrams all their mouthpieces and enable you to do comparisons betweens rims or bowls by overlaying one on another.

http://www.housermouthpiece.net/tuba-ri ... -tech.html

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:28 pm**

Sadly, with the changed receiver, some of the usual suspects disappear, but for a 163, I'm not surprised your 7B is having a fight with it! As for "normal" shank options:

I have a student who uses the Stofer Geib model with good results. I tried it and it's a nice balance. It's big, but good.

Ron Bishop often used a Miraphone C4 on his for tighter playing and would still lift the roof off; he used an adapter, but the cup size is voluminous enough to make pitch normal for the Alex.

I would look for some thing with a bowl shape in general; try a Yamaha 67C4 (slightly different than the Miraphone TU-23/C4. Works well with an adapter as well (which you'll not need). Might play with a Bach 12 or 18, the older the better (more bowl-shaped).

J.c.S. (Who used Alex MPs exclusively on his 163 and 164 Alexs)

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:10 pm**

I suggest you look at Giddings and Webster. The Matanuska is designed after the 7B. They also have several larger sized mouthpieces all made from stainless steel (or titanium). With the polished stainless you should get a similar feel to the gold plated mouthpiece you currently are using.

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:28 pm**

Does your Alexander have a Dillon Adjustable Gap Receiver (AGR) installed? That is what immediately comes to mind after reading your description, but without photos or more details it is hard to say for sure.

Knowing what you have for a receiver is important because of the variety of shank sizes that are available. If your current 7B actually fits the horn now, I'd guess that your receiver is setup for American shank mouthpices, as EVERY Conn Helleberg or 7B I've ever encountered is this way. That seems like an awfully small shank and receiver size for an Alexander to me, but if that's what you've got, that's what you've got.

Shank size info (originally posted by Matt Walters of Dillon Music):

TUBA SHANK SIZES (primer)

In the world of tuba mouthpieces, it seems there are five (5) general shank sizes and that, can lead to confusion. The Standard American and European Shank sizes, followed by the Large Shank, are the most common sizes that fit modern production tubas. From smallest to largest, we offer the following information to shed a little light on the subject.

EUROPEAN SHANK: This is an increasingly popular shank size of about .530" diameter at the small end of the shank. It is found in mouthpieces like the JK Exclusive, Perantucci, Laskey "E" shank, and of course our wonderful Sheridan Series of mouthpieces. Most every European and American tuba built these days, will accept this shank size.

STANDARD AMERICAN: The reference point for this size of about .520" at the small end of the shank. A good example would be the Bach, and Conn Helleberg tuba mouthpieces. This is the most common size here in the United States. In the Dennis Wick line, you need to make sure it has the "L" in the model number to get this standard size. Our regular size shank Dillon Mouthpieces are also of this size. Besides American built horns, many European horns like Miraphone can use this size.

LARGE SHANK: This is a larger size that measures about .550" diameter at the small end of the shank. It works well on the larger European tubas. Especially horns with large diameter leadpipes like the "York" copies and most Alexander model 163 CC tubas. This is the size of our Dillon Music "L" shank mouthpiece and the new Wick 2XL.

SMALL EUROPEAN: Having a diameter of .490" at small end of shank, this size is offered by Dennis Wick in the sizes 1 through 5. Just make sure you order the one without the "L" in the model number. This size is most commonly used on old Besson tubas and old American Eb tubas. I hear this referred to as the Eb tuba size. Some old German, etc. 3/4 size BBb tubas have also shown up with that receiver size. If you are having trouble figuring out what small size shank your old tuba needs, it is about the same size as a large shank trombone mouthpiece. Borrow one from a trombonist and see for yourself. You can order a Denis Wick mouthpiece, or to have a wider variety of mouthpieces to choose from, consider replacing the receiver for about the price of a mouthpiece.

KAISER SHANK: With a measurement of about .585" in diameter at the small end of the shank, this truly is a "Kaiser" size. It fits the largest Alexander model 164, a few ‘one off’ model 163's, and some original York receivers we've come across. Anyone needing this size shank will need to get a custom built mouthpiece, or have an adapter made.

I rarely say that any particular mouthpiece is not a good fit for a given instrument, but will make an exception in this case. A Conn 7B is just not the right type of mouthpiece for an instrument like an Alexander. I have tried MANY options in my Alexander 163 just to see what happens and always end up here:

First choice: Doug Elliott setup (R cup, #7 or #8---pretty big sizes--- for backbore/shank).

Second choice: Dillon M1CL (not made anymore, ask around on the for sale forum)

Third choice: Schilke Geib Euro or Laskey Geib series

I also have the original mouthpiece that came with the horn and have tried out several other factory Alexander tuba mouthpieces. They are all very wide, quite shallow, and have small throats, and wide rims on them. I've found that the factory mouthpice does make the instrument seem more efficient and easier to steer, but that I prefer the sound of something deeper and not nearly as wide (some Alex mouthpices are 36mm or more wide). The factory piece is a bit like a really wide version of a PT-64, for reference.

Alexander tubas, in their unaltered state, are rather mouthpiece sensitive. The biggest thing I've discovered in my own experimentation is that fit in the receiver makes a significant difference on a Alexander. Having the right shank sizes for my receiver (from Doug Elliott) honestly does make a very noticeable difference in the way the horn plays and how managable pitch is (and mine's an excellent one).

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:47 pm**

I have used a few mouthpieces with my 163, with the best results being a copy of one of JcSherman's Alex MP's. Recently I have found a modified (Wedge) Shilke H2 works well, although it has more "Alex" intonation issue than a bowl shaped counterpart.

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:01 pm**

Ben,

I use a PS02 on my 163 and am happy with it. They don't make it anymore, but I'm sure Vladimir could get you the specs so one of the custom MP guys could replicate it. It has a wide diameter, similar to a PT-50, but has a rather deep funnel (almost no cup to speak of). Maybe what an extra large Helleburg might be like, albeit with a soft rim (better for your "fangs")

Incidentally, I have started to use this on my 163 as well and am happy with the way it makes the low register open up. The highs are a bit less brilliant, but have a more forgiving center to them (especially high D).

Good luck, as one all-Alex player to the next, you need it!

jon

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:55 pm**

I've had a 163 for about 12 years now. I started with a Doug Elliott mouthpiece that was fine, switched to a PT50 looking for something else but found the pitch was worse and the sound was unfocused. I switched to a Laskey 30G about 5 years ago and haven't looked back since. I've tried the Stofer Geib, the Blokepieces, PT88, etc. Nothing comes close to the pitch and sound of the 30G for my setup.

FWIW, I use a blokepiece on my Neptune, but I just can't get over the pure, clean Alex sound the Laskey 30G helps me create. It's great.

JB

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:00 pm**

Wow! What a wealth of information! I really need to get out more it seems.

I'm not sure what a Dillon AGR looks like. My adjustable receiver has no labeling so may be a home made one. It looks like a very large thick brass nut threaded onto part of a receiver. If I remember right, they are supposed to adjust the resonance of the horn. It also seems to adjust the intonation a bit.

Would it make more sense to:
a. get a replacement Alexander receiver (and look for a mouthpiece to fit)? If so, are there any shops that carry Alexander parts that you'd recommend?

or

b. keep the adjustable receiver and just look for a mouthpiece.

-laurel

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:22 pm**

Taranis wrote:
Would it make more sense to:
a. get a replacement Alexander receiver (and look for a mouthpiece to fit)? If so, are there any shops that carry Alexander parts that you'd recommend?

or

b. keep the adjustable receiver and just look for a mouthpiece.

Option A (new receiver) is not that simple. Unlike many tubas, Alexanders (in factory configuration) do not have a separate receiver. What appears to be the receiver is actually just a nickel silver sleeve fitted over the end of the leadpipe in order to attach the leadpipe to the bell. When you put the mouthpiece in, it actually goes into the end of the leadpipe. What this means is that the only way you can get your receiver back to factory is to get a completely new leadpipe from Alexander. It can be done, but it isn't cheap. Consult with Lee Stofer if this is something you want to explore.

For now my suggestion is to buy a differrent mouthpiece, like a Laskey 30G.

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:24 pm**

Alexander parts are actually pretty affordable. Email em; you may be surprised.

J.c.S.

Posted: **Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:34 pm**

You're right Tom. I checked the "receiver" on my tuba duet partner's Alex (Kaiser) and it is indeed a sleeve over the leadpipe. Replacing the leadpipe sounds like a little more long term though I think it's something I'd like to do. For now, I'll stick with the receiver I've got. I've worn through the gold plating on the rim of my only mouthpiece and don't think I can not play for the amount of time it will take to get a new leadpipe installed.

Is there a good place to get parts in the US/CAN or do I need to order them direct from Alexander? Yes, it's what I do for a living, I just haven't had to locate Alex parts before.

Does anyone have a Doug Elliott they'd like to part with? Since that one screws together, I could play on it while I'm locating an Alex leadpipe/receiver and buy another shank later. Yes, I know it will change a lot to have a different backbore/shank size but it'll give me something to start with (I hope).
Thanks
Laurel

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:01 am**

The contact I use is

C.Kerkhoff (at) musik-alexander.de

Casper Kerkhoff. He's been my contact, speaks English, and has been a breeze to deal with. You can contact him or have your tech do it.

J.c.S. (who notes his Alex mouthpieces are neither very shallow, nor tight ; )

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:10 am**

I have some mouthpieces I'd like to part with

and I can make a shank for it that will do what you want.

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:51 am**

I will second Tom's recommendation of the Doug Elliott R cup. It seems to me like a pretty much perfect match for the 163. I've also found the G&W Caver to work well if you like a bit more edge to your sound.

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:34 am**

J.c. Sherman wrote:
J.c.S. (who notes his Alex mouthpieces are neither very shallow, nor tight ; )

Yes, the Alexander mouthpieces you have (per Ben's descriptions) seem quite different than what I have. Also, for what it's worth, I ordered 5 Alexander mouthpices through Lee Stofer several years ago. All of them quite similar to what I already had. The widest one of the bunch was either 36 or 38mm, all were very shallow bowls with very small throats and then huge shanks.

I would actually be very interested in seeing what you have, especially the one that's been described as an Alexander Helleberg.

Any ideas on how old they are?

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:35 pm**

I don't know where you're located, but I welcome anyone to see 'em. The two mouthpieces are easily over 40 years old, probably closer to 60 years old. Both were made in solid nickel-silver; one's gold-plated, the other silver plated.

The one I used on the 164 was broader, more thin and rounded rim and more bowl-shaped. I thing the 163 applied MP is the "Alex Helleberg" you're refering to. Wide flat rim, sharp inner edge, deep, but with a bowl and throat more pronounced than a Helleberg... by a long shot. Both have enormous shanks and huge backbores.

J.c.S.

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:48 pm**

Jc, I was comparing my copy of your 164 piece to a helleburg, while more rounded than a SH2, the approximate depth, cup diameter throat diameter and aproximate shape are very similar. They even sound similar, but the 164 piece sounds broader (backbore?)

Anyone in NYC area can take a peak at these, although I have further modified the rims. they are quite fantastic.

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