An euphonium which was too flat

[Arthur plays tuba]

Hi,
Ive recently acquired an old euphonium (rather inexpensively). A very nice playing instrument - but its open bugle is some 40 cents flat with the main tuning slide all in.
Any solutions? Ive thought about
1. A shallower mouthpiece - im currently using an old loud lm20. Any mouthpiece you would recommend that has a shallower cup but with more or less the same rim width?
2. Cutting tubing at the main tuning slide - i have 1/4 of an inch to cut each side of the main bugle at the tuning slide, before i have to cut the tuning slide itself. So the question would be: how much tubing should i roughly expect to cut to bring my euphonium up 40 cents of a semitone?
Or should i trash the horn? ;(
Any advices appreciated! Thanks!

[oldbandnerd]

Give it to me. I play so sharp that between me and the horn it will play closer in tune !

[Gator]

My best guess that there is a good possibility that the valves are shot and they need to be re-plated.

[ghmerrill]

It is difficult to tell what the problem may be, given the detail you've shared so far.

I can tell you that in my experience with two quite distinct euphoniums I have acquired over the past couple of years, they both seem quite sensitive to the mouthpiece. So (assuming you have no evidence that your valves are shot or that you have other leaks) it might be worth experimenting with mouthpieces.

One thing I have discovered recently is that my Schilke 60 made my euphs play flat by about 15 cents across the board. I have had the best result with Denis Wick 'AL' series, and am now using a Wicke 3AL for my primary mouthpiece on my Mack Brass (Jin Bao) compensating euph. But I'm going to try even larger ones.

For my Amati oval (non-comp) euph, I have been using a Wick SM4. But when I tried the SM mouthpieces in the comp horn, the results were obviously not as good as with the ALs. And trying the 3AL in the oval euph sounded really great. Dave Werden also plays an AL (a 4AL) in preference to an SM and feels it is freer blowing. I was surprised at how much difference the mouthpiece made in each of these horns.

So you might do a little mouthpiece experimentation before looking for more complex problems.

You also might post to Werden's euphonium forum since you're likely to get more reliable euphonium advice there.

[aqualung]

So the question would be: how much tubing should i roughly expect to cut to bring my euphonium up 40 cents of a semitone?

Borrow another euph that plays up to pitch.
Tune it down to the flat horn.
The amount you pull is equivalent to the amount you want to cut from the flat horn.

[Donn]

My best guess that there is a good possibility that the valves are shot and they need to be re-plated.

Or some other leakage. If there's no reason to think it was built to play at that pitch on purpose, then don't cut it.

[brassbow]

What make and model is the horn. If it originally came from Europe, it could be pitched in say A 435 or A432.First put the slide were the brass shows discoloration. This could be the original tuning position ( about 1/2 inch out) then adjust the tuner calibration till the horn is showing 0% ( intune). This will give an idea of what pitch the horn is in. Next try a shorter shank mouthpiece first then cut the tuning slide if that doesn't work.

[ghmerrill]

Here's another thought -- just so it's not overlooked, and not wanting to offend, and partly based on my own experience with an old (well, 60's -- so not as old as me) European euph.

Have you had anyone else play the instrument? Have you THOROUGHLY cleaned it (409, 409, brush and brush, flush and flush)? Are you an experienced euphonium player? Or is this your first euph?

When I got my Amati and started playing it (even after I got a decent mouthpiece for it), it sounded pretty good in the mid and high range, but was rather consistently flat (around 15-20 cents). "Leaks", I thought. But there really weren't any (except for a minor one in the second valve). Time passed. I played it more and got an even better mouthpiece. The pitch started coming up. Magic? No, just embouchure development from not having played trombone for 20 years.

If you've eliminated the other possibilities (and, most importantly perhaps, had an experienced euph player try it), and it's really flat, then it clearly needs some major attention. But I'd be really careful about "fixing" it if it ain't really broke (having done that sort of thing myself a couple of times and "overfixed" something).

A couple of weeks ago (after I got the comp euph and had been playing it -- a real delight), I thought "Maybe I should take the oval one in to someone and get the slides tightened up even though they're not obviously all that loose. It might improve it." Then on a lark I tried the 3AL in it (though the end of that just barely fits into the receiver), and the thing was a beast! Huge sound, great range, well down into tuba range. Now I just have to figure out how to get a similar mouthpiece to fit into the danged medium shank receiver -- or replace the receiver. My point is that with some of these horns, there are a LOT of variables, and some of the results are surprising.

[NeilD]

Not to be overlooked is the possibility that the horn came with two tuning slides and you have only the longer one. My 1907 York and sons plays in tune at A440 with the short slide pulled out quite a ways, and the longer one is unuseable in a modern setting. No amount of mouthpiece changing has much effect on pitch with this horn.

[Chriss2760]

Two of the three euph players in my quartet have had to get their oval horns cut to bring them up to pitch. Around 3/4" for both, I believe.

[dwerden]

The rough math is something like this...

The open B-flat horn is normally about 108" long. A half step at that length is about 6.5". You need 40% of that, or about 2.5". HOWEVER, each leg only has to be cut by half of that, so about 1.25".

But I like the idea above of getting a "normal" euphonium for a couple minutes and see how far you have to pull the slide to get down to your horn's pitch. That might better take into account factors in your playing.

[ghmerrill]

Two of the three euph players in my quartet have had to get their oval horns cut to bring them up to pitch. Around 3/4" for both, I believe.

Can you disclose the brands of these oval euphs?

[Arthur plays tuba]

Thanks for all the input. Ive tried another euphonium - thats about 1 1/2 inch each side that i have to cut.