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I think that's a great idea. The volume could easily be adjusted on the output so that it was just loud enough to be heard by the performers, but not so loud the audience would hear the effects of electric amplification. It wouldn't require a lot of money for equipment either.

I can think of more than one performance I was involved with that would have been better in tune if the brass soloists could have heard the woodwind soloists.

Whoa! Do you really know what you're suggesting here?

Its taken centuries for orchestras to learn how to play with each other; the woodwinds playing a fraction behind the strings and the brass playing a fraction behind the woodwinds and the percussion playing a fraction behind the brass! O, the joy of playing those passages when you have to miraculously sync up with the trombones AND the basses....at the same time. Destroyed with the flick of a switch.

Next you'll be suggesting that we all start our notes on the conductor's downbeat instead when he's recoiling to give the second beat!

But seriously. It seems that there are very few stages with the best of both worlds; great sound for the musicians AND the audience. It's not really that strange. Either all the sound stays on stage, we have a good time and the audience just doesn't "feel it", or the sound projects wonderfully into the hall and we can't hear sXXt.

I guess a violinist might suggest that we all play softer (and they're probably right) but a little amplification can improve things if done gently. I wouldn't go for wireless. The sound isn't as warm as it is with cables.

-Pat

pjv wrote:I wouldn't go for wireless. The sound isn't as warm as it is with cables.

That is not a function of wireless, but rather a function of the systems you have heard. Many wireless systems are designed for singers and speakers, not instrumentalists, and have an equalization suited to those applications. But the spectrum is easy to adjust to suit whatever sound you desire.

But the timing issue is a real one. I'm not sure I'm capable of controlling microseconds of delay, but we do all learn what we sound like when we are all together in our usual venues, and we adjust subconsciously to achieve that. Many sound reinforcement systems are timed at the microsecond level so that the sound emanating from loudspeakers placed any distance from the source will seem to come from the source--human brains are quite good at imaging sound based on those micro-timing effects.

It's also true that some wireless sound systems have digital mechanisms that introduce slight latencies.

But my complaint with the whole idea is that we should not align with each other based only on sound, which moves slowly. We should align with each other based on sight--light moves fast. Conductors who can't give a clear ictus get what they get.

Rick "who learned LONG ago never to depend on the percussion section to be in time" Denney

Just give everybody a set of isolation earbuds and one of these:

Interestingly enough, everyone in the "rhythm section" at my church has one, but the rest of the orchestra does not. (probably due to cost)
I do get spoiled when playing bass, as I can dial in everything I need hear at the proper levels (usually having the kick drum as the loudest)
I doubt anyone would want a symphony orchestra to look like a recording studio, though....

bloke wrote:

Rick Denney wrote:But my complaint with the whole idea is that we should not align with each other based only on sound, which moves slowly. We should align with each other based on sight--light moves fast.

Yes. Musical precision, is primarily, visual.

Joe? Helloooooo! We were talking about when things happen, not at what pitch.

Sorta makes you wonder 1.) why they pay a conductor to wave a stick, and 2.) why the conductor uses a stick instead of, say, a triangle.

I mean, how else is everyone supposed to know when things are supposed to happen? Perhaps the conductor has a different idea on performance night than during the rehearsals. Are we supposed to ignore him? If we don't watch the stick, how will we know? By whoever is loudest in the mix on the on-stage monitor? Chamber groups can use telepathy, but mostly they either have memorized when things happen through long experience playing together, sit where they can see each other, or hire a drummer to drown them out.

Rick "not going into whether the conductor is any good at waving the stick" Denney

It seems like such an easy experiment - to do the converse, where no one can hear anyone else, and the conductor is the only reference - that someone must have done it already?

Maybe the orchestra of the future will be equipped with a system, similar in that each performer is hooked up with an earphone, but the input will be a `click track' controlled by the conductor. Speed controlled by foot pedals or something. Didn't they use bigger batons back in the old days, and bang them on the floor?

Donn wrote:Didn't they use bigger batons back in the old days, and bang them on the floor?

Indeed they did -- and it cost Jean-Baptiste Lully his life:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Lully

You can do what I do for the stages with bad acoustics: use a recording bell.

bloke wrote:The next time I have trouble hearing the concertmaster or hearing the strike of the percussion (rather than its echo), I'll remember to go get a recording bell tuba.

Even a 3/4 size recording bell should work wonders.

bloke wrote:The next time I have trouble hearing the concertmaster or hearing the strike of the percussion (rather than its echo), I'll remember to go get a recording bell tuba.

If nothing else, it could help avoid the problem of seeing the conductor.

bloke wrote:I regularly play on one stage with amazing stage acoustics ("the ability to hear everyone else in the orchestra")

Bloke, you are a lucky person.

bloke wrote:Why not stick an omnidirectional mic under the concertmaster and near the percussion? Place some floor monitors in front of the brass (not loud, but audible to the brass musicians) so they can 1/ hear the concertmaster and 2/ hear the percussion when it happens (instead of too late...some echo, etc.).

That would be a great solution in many situations and I have many many times wondered why such assistance devices are used so seldom for a symphony orchestra.

bloke wrote:Orchestra halls use other modern technology (climate control, electric lights, flush toilets, etc.) Why not employ some modern technology that makes it easier to hear and to synchronize the sound?

As you said. Why is the main content of the concert hall not given maximum support for a great performance if needed? When the acoustics is bad one solution is of course, for example for us low brass players, to look at the concertmaster or the principal double bass, or some other musician, when we need to be together if spread on each side of the stage which seems to be not so unusual in some orcherstras now.

The conductor has a very important role, which seems to not in every situation be fulfilled by all and everyone. And some persons does not even look at a conductor because of that, even if it is a really good one... In some situations when I have argued that it is not possible to play at the baton or even after, someone always says 'don't look at the guy and you will be fine'... (Conductor's salaries are mostly many times that of an orchestra musician) However in some way you have to get the work done and usually there is some magic, and competence maybe, involved so the result usually works. There may also be different perspectives on this if you are a wind/brass or string player? So there are many things to take in account.

Many times, though, subs that are used to play at the beat in other situations, not three quarter of a beat behind or so, works with us and we must often tell them to not play on the beat with the result of something like this from them. That's not so good...

However back to your suggestion of mics an monitors. We use that sort of stuff on a couple of productions, that is more so called 'popular music concerts', each year. When the whole thing works and is adjusted correctly it is so easy and enjoyable to play together, and the result is tighter.

Many years ago we did a tour when we played in one hall where it was absolutely impossible to hear each other on the stage, not even the colleagues in the trombone/tuba section. Somehow it worked out, but it was clearly not one of the orchestras' best performances ever.

I think the old concert hall at the Danish Radio used some sort of monitor system for the orchestra because of the difficulty to hear each other on the stage. (Maybe Klaus knows something about that??) So, if so, it has then been done and I think it is not wrong to use technology if the sounding results could be bettered. That usually is also good for the audience that, after all, pays for their tickets to listen to the concerts...

So, I think your suggestion is great and should lead to better performances in bad halls... However there may be a risk in that the designers takes these devices and fixes the problems when the hall is built instead of when it is planned. OTOH, the more discussion of these things the better. I mean, it is possible to fly to the moon but...

The concert hall in the old Radio House (now the conservatory) first tried to improved hearing across the orchestra by means of plexiglass disks hung from the ceiling in a way that allowed for hight adjustments as needed with various orchestra sizes and set-ups. When computerized acoustic modeling improved they had some wooden geometric structures added to the side and back walls. The immediate reaction from the solo trombonist was that the heavy brasses had to take down their louder dynamics as the hall no longer killed their sound.

Klaus

imperialbari wrote:...The concert hall in the old Radio House (now the conservatory) first tried to improved hearing...

Thanks for the information Klaus. But did the changes improve the ability for the musicians to hear each other on the stage?

bloke wrote:...particularly suffering with this issue this weekend...
...Strong exposed tuba/low brass entrances involve "best guesses"...

Sorry to hear that, the Frank symphony is so good and should be a joy to play.

Isn't it strange that we discusses instruments and their capacities, pluses and minuses so much, but does anyone know if architects and designers of concert halls discusses how the halls should best be designed to work for both artists and audience?! And most important, may some of the concepts work just out of luck? I know there are a couple of persons around the world that are renowned for hall acoustics, but as I understand there are more halls built than the ones these persons are involved with?!?

bloke wrote:...The Franck concert was a pleasure...
...Once several hundred bodies and chairs were in there...

Good to hear that.
So the audience was the acoustic treatment...

bloke wrote:...We're repeating it in another venue about 80 miles away today...

Very curious to hear your experiences from that event.

Lingon wrote:

imperialbari wrote:...The concert hall in the old Radio House (now the conservatory) first tried to improved hearing...

Thanks for the information Klaus. But did the changes improve the ability for the musicians to hear each other on the stage?

It reportedly did, but as the later addition of the wooden wall structures suggests, there still was room for improvement.

Klaus

Lingon wrote:...But did the changes improve the ability for the musicians to hear each other on the stage?...

imperialbari wrote:It reportedly did, but as the later addition of the wooden wall structures suggests, there still was room for improvement.

What about the acoustics in the hall of the new house, both from the musicians' and the audience's perspectives? Did it work out as supposed or are there things that have to be worked on too?

I must agree Bloke, the concert Sunday was very well appreciated, well done and the acoustics of the venue are quite good in my opinion. I really enjoy concerts there as you really can focus on individual sections of the orchestra or listen to the entire group. Rest assured, our community hopes we will be included for more concerts next season. Large thanks go out from many to Director Gilbert and the group, truly an honor for our town.