mouthpiece

[Dan Schultz]

Anyone have any ideas in choosing the right mouthpiece?

You're gonna have to just try a bunch of 'em. All joking aside, the selection of a mouthpiece is a very personal thing. What works for me on various horns I use might not be worth a hoot to you.

[ken k]

Anyone have any ideas in choosing the right mouthpiece?

You can try to narrow down your choices by defining what it is you are looking for in your mouthpiece. What is your present mouthpiece not doing that you want a new one to do. What kind of playing ar you doind, solo, ensemble large band or orch? etc.

ken k

[Roger Lewis]

picking out a mouthpiece is like buying underwear - it has to be what YOU like and what works for you in your playing.

[winston]

.

[Anterux]

Barton Cummings on his article "thoughts on tuba" http://www.tubaeuph.com/tu-articles-thoughts.cfm says:
(start quote)
"MOUTHPIECE: They are such a controversial area, that I will only say that Bill Bell had the philosophy that the mouthpiece that came with an instrument was good enough. This may or may not be true, but it is a good place to start, especially for beginning students. For more advanced student and professionals, it will be a matter of pick and choose, trial and error and the recommendations of teachers and colleagues. There are some terms you should know about mouthpieces that will help you make a good choice.

Cup Volume: Simply stated, this is the inside of the mouthpiece. You can have a small or large or somewhere in between measurement. In between is the best choice because a small cup volume will produce thin and weak notes, while one that is too large will cause the sound to be muddy and unclear.
Rim - Outer and Inner; It is important that the outer rim not be too thin or too thick and the inner rim should be a compromise between rounded and sharp.
Throat: We are speaking of the whole or entrance at the bottom of the cup. The deal, if one exists, is an entrance that is round and graduated.
Shank: This is the long part of the mouthpiece that fits into the mouthpiece receiver. It is important to make sure that this part fits properly into the mouthpiece receiver to avoid intonation and response problems.
Remember, there is no such thing as an "ideal" mouthpiece. Choose one, master it and use it. In general, the mouthpiece should be one that feels comfortable on the embouchure and one that allows for quick, easy response and allows the player to negotiate all of the musical requirements necessary.

My recommendation for the measurements of an excellent mouthpiece are:

Cup Diameter: 1-9/32"
Cup Depth: Medium to Medium-Deep
Rim Shape: Fairly wide and rounded"
(end quote)

Hope this helps.

[Roger Lewis]

Take your mouthpiece and throw it against the wall.....Now take your tuba and throw it against the wall. You have now heard the only sounds that either of these "things" makes. There is no sound, noise or music in either of these tools. They don't make a noise without you doing something to them. Think about it - buzz your lips away from the horn and mouthpiece - what a strange noise, huh? This is what the horn and mouthpiece amplify and color in the process of making music.

What it comes down to is - get yourself to a good teacher and focus on the efficiency of the body's creation of the buzz (good air, good posture, efficient embouchure, etc.) - then any horn or mouthpiece combination will sound pretty darn good.

This will also save you a lot of time.

Just my observations.

[Alan Baer]

Mouthpieces are a very interesting subject that I've been looking into for the last few years. I'm not an equipment junky, at all... Once I find something that works, I stay with it or something VERY similar.
A mouthpiece MUST be a fine ballance between the player, horn and the piece. Folks who are using a big piece on a small tuba, or even worse, on a big tuba, to create a "big" sound, are in a sense "hosing" themselves. It's like putting a tractor tire on a toyota.. Will it get you down the road?, yes it will, will it do it in the way you want it to? Probably not... Here are a few things to look for:
*One should never pick a piece because of what it sounds like.
IMO.. What ever you are playing, you will sound like you..
* don't pick a piece because it has someones name on it. Just because it worked for them, it probably won't work for you.
*Pick a mouthpiece with the proper shank for YOUR horn. If you don't know what shank you have, perhaps you had better find out, it's as important as playing the proper fingerings.
*Pick a mouthpiece for each horn, even if it's the same piece as your other horn. It's VERY hard to find a mouthpiece maker that can make two identical pieces. Even small differences can feel much different to the player.
* if you are playing two different keyed horns (ie. F and C)
you really should not be using the same piece on both horns, same rim, not the same piece. Mouthpieces have come a long way and there are pieces that are designed for a small tuba. Don't compensate or try to hide you low register problems with a piece that covers, how do you fix something that is covered up?
*pick a piece that you can make clean articulations at ALL dynamics, not a loud mouthpiece and a soft mouthpiece....
*Pick a piece that will ALLOW YOU to create a centered sound. Playing a piece that is way too big and open only creates problems within the section, believe it or not, people do like to be able to hear center and intonation so that they can tune to it. We are the foundation, aren't we?
*avoid pieces with excessive mass.. too slow to respond in the lows and usually flat in the highs. It just makes it harder..
It also cuts out so many of the highs in the sound of the tuba, these are needed to give it the "tuba sound"... ( some believe, some don't)
*Pick a rim that is comfortable.... Too sharp of a rim will HOLD the chops in place, sometimes too much. This will lead to response issues, and possibly many other issuses such as:
double buzz, bruised chops, flexability issues,(very controversial among mouthpiece makers) AND it can just plain hurt, and possible hurt you..
*in closing, I usually pick the smallest piece that I can get away with and that will allow me to follow the above.. Granted, this is the "Readers Digest" version of picking a tuba mouthpiecs. So, if your not at least doing this much, step back and take a look at what your using. Perhaps you don't have such a GREAT mouthpiece and that there is equipment out there that will help you do it much easier..
Just my opinion.

[ken k]

Ok, let me be a lil bit clearer. I haven't played in a few years and am looking to get back into it. When I was in high school I used a Schilke-Helleberg which I still have and love. I guess what I'm asking is, are there specifics in a mouthpiece to look for if you're trying to find, let's say a deeper tone, something to help with lip slurs. Why a deep cup over a shallow one? What does the size of the rim have to do with anything? Are manufactures producing mouthpieces for specific results or is still player preference? Thanks

I will try to addresss your specific questions. I will start by saying that the Schilke Helleberg is a fine mouthpiece. I happen to use one on my helicon. (although that is not what makes it good!)

In general a deeper cup will give you a fuller or deeper or darker tone than a shallower cup. Also the low register will generally come out easier with a deeper cup.(again very general statement and these abstract terms can mean different things to different people.)

Shallower cups will brighten the tone and help when playing in high resgister for extended periods of time like solo work or say first tuba parts in a tuba euph quartet, when you are constantly up in the staff or above.

A sharper inner rim edge can help facilitate articulations and slurs, but some people find the sharp rim of say a Conn Helleberg to be uncomfortable.

I feel the rim size is simply a matter of a comfortable fit to your mouth. Everyone's lips and dental structure are different, and what feels good for one person may not "fit" another.

Some manufacturers are making specialty mouthpeice like the heavyweight pieces or using other materials like stainless steel, titanium and bronze rather then the standard brass to acieve certain results which they obviously feel are superior. Gold vs. Silver plate is generally a personal preference. Some people like the smoother, wetter feel of gold, while others like the mouthpeice to stick a little more. You just have to try them a see which works best for you.

Hope this helps.
welcome back to the fold.
ken k

[Rick Denney]

If you ask me, too many people these days get too fussy about their mouthpiece choices (especially orchestral players).

Well, with all due respect, when you are an orchestra player, you can set a new example.

Most will agree with your general statement that people are too concerned about equipment. But don't make the opposite error, that equipment doesn't matter at all. Yes, the great player can sound good on a soda bottle with a shank, but the real question is how hard he had to work to get that good sound, and how much better still he might have sounded with an optimal mouthpiece.

The impedance of the mouthpiece affects the sound nearly as much as the impedance of the tuba, even though both of those are constrained by the impedance of the player's embouchure. So, getting the right mouthpiece may not make a bad player good, but it can sure help a bad player to be the best he can be.

In the grand scheme of things, mouthpieces for tuba players are cheap. We've all heard Bloke tell us (based on the experience of his bassoonist wife and oboist daughter) about the travails of double-reed players in their search for the perfect reed, which even when they find it will not last more than a week or two. My niece is studying bassoon at Ohio State right now, and I spent more buying some of the needed reed-making stuff as part of her high-school graduation present than all but the most expensive tuba mouthpieces.

So, I'm all for experimentation to find the mouthpiece that is comfortable and that most easily produces one's best sound.

On the other hand, the search can be orderly or disorderly, with the latter being more expensive than necessary and less likely to find the optimum. Someone above mentioned the importance of identifying the problems with the current mouthpiece, but most young players don't have the experience or the frame of reference to answer that question. For them (this is not my answer to the original poster, but to young players who might ask the same question), I would suggest two courses of action. The first is to seek the advice of a teacher. And the second is to build that baseline of experience with the most time-honored and proven designs. That means, start with either a Conn Helleberg or a Bach 18, and commit to playing it for a year before considering something new. If the teacher suggests something other than one of those two, then fine. Most teachers will, I'm assuming, recommend a conservative choice for young students. But get the experience first so you have something to compare against.

Rick "who would not have much invested in mouthpieces if he would just sell the ones that didn't work" Denney

[MaryAnn]

Something nobody has said is that you have to make some progress in playing the tuba before you can really tell the difference; I don't mean that there won't be a difference...but that it won't really make any difference until you get some technique going. I have a cigar box full of horn mouthpieces that I tried before I ended up with the one I use....but I didn't "get to" that one until I had been playing quite a few years. Recently I found a rim that made a huge difference, and I seriously doubt I'll change either one, ever, unless there is a quantum leap in mouthpiece technology. My cigar box full of pieces was acquired during my attempts to fix my sound or my technique with a mouthpiece, and of course it didn't work. When I was able to control my playing...I started sounding pretty much the same on all pieces, and THEN I was able to pick one that locked in the notes on the horn in a way I liked, and which was very middle of the road in terms of "natural" sound.

MA, who still says the bell is WAY more influential than the mouthpiece, and who is still not good enough on tuba to get picky about a piece

[WoodSheddin]

Something nobody has said is that you have to make some progress in playing the tuba before you can really tell the difference

Same goes for purchasing a new horn. It is very difficult to get a reliable conclusion on the quality of a new instrument if the operator has out of shape weak chops.
If you plan on seriously trying out any new equipment, first make sure your chops are in top form.

[Rick Denney]

Ok, let me be a lil bit clearer. I haven't played in a few years and am looking to get back into it. When I was in high school I used a Schilke-Helleberg which I still have and love. I guess what I'm asking is, are there specifics in a mouthpiece to look for if you're trying to find, let's say a deeper tone, something to help with lip slurs. Why a deep cup over a shallow one? What does the size of the rim have to do with anything? Are manufactures producing mouthpieces for specific results or is still player preference? Thanks

You have already gotten the best advice imaginable, from one of the top players in the world. Ain't the Internet grand?

The only comment Mr. Baer made that I would question, on the grounds of science, is the issue of mass. I don't think it makes as much difference as he suggests. But I would only word his recommendation slightly differently: Don't pick a mouthpiece because it is heavy (or because it is light). Pick it because it works. But I would like to associate myself with everything else he said.

In particular, the problem of using too large a mouthpiece to mask problems in the low register. For many years, I have played my Yamaha 621 F tuba with a largish mouthpiece to open up the low register. Last year, when I bought the B&S, I got a Mike Finn MF-4 mouthpiece. The focus and clarity of that mouthpiece on that instrument has made me dissatisfied with the sound I was getting on the 621, which now sounds to my ears fuzzy and unfocused. Bloke had hinted to me before that I was fighting the instrument with a large mouthpiece, but I'm hard-headed and learn slow.

From an acoustical point of view, there are some general tendencies that you can find in the literature. One is that increasing cup volume decreases the "center" of the mouthpiece's impedance (i.e., it lowers the pitch at which it resonates most readily), which depresses pitch slightly, especially in the upper register. The same effect is caused by a smaller mouthpiece throat.

Another tendency is that a larger throat imposes less control on the pitch of the buzz. In other words, a larger throat makes it easier for the player to bend the pitch. But if it's too large, the player may not have sufficient control to center the pitch at all.

I once went to Doug Elliott and work with him to assemble a mouthpiece to use on my York Master. After he repaired the factory mistake of not cutting a taper in the receiver, he worked with me to find the best combination of rim, cup, and shank. His goals closely tracked what Mr. Baer said. The objective of the rim is comfort and fit. The objective of the cup is sound, where a deeper cup creates a larger but less colorful sound. And he selected the shank with the largest bore on which I could make a good sound and maintain reasonable intonation, but still provide better pitch flexibility on an instrument that can be a bit stiff. Then, he machined the shank to provide a perfect fit in the receiver.

Presently, I use two mouthpieces on my Holton. The PT-48 is the larger of the two, but with a shallower cup. It makes more of a power sound. The other is a Laskey 30H, which is smaller (though considerably deeper) and more focused, but with a deeper sound and less edge. I choose the mouthpiece to fit the venue and the music, with the Laskey being the one used more often at this point. Of course, they are merely influences on my own sound, more's the pity.

Rick "a slow learner" Denney

[Tabor]

Take your mouthpiece and throw it against the wall.....Now take your tuba and throw it against the wall. You have now heard the only sounds that either of these "things" makes. There is no sound, noise or music in either of these tools. They don't make a noise without you doing something to them.

...and when you're done throwing your tools against the wall, Roger can sell you some really nice replacements!!!