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Hmm... I think it might be good to look at these two types of horns from the SAME company. Let's use Kanstul...

http://kanstul.com/detail.php?pass_sear ... t=Trombone" target="_blank

http://kanstul.com/detail.php?pass_sear ... t=Trombone" target="_blank

While the differences are not huge in tuba standards, they are similar to the differences between a large tenor and a bass trombone. Comparing the bores of rotor and piston horns doesn't always tell us a lot.

Pardon my ignorance, but why is the bass trumpet 2K more? Different materials? Greater artistry? Fewer made and sold? (There must be market support for the price point...but geez Louise!)

I have never played a bass trumpet, but if the horn has any similarities to valve trombone...I would prefer a flugabone any day of the week.

...also, with the right combination of listening, practicing, and mp selection...one could get very good "bass trumpet" or "valve trombone" sounds on a medium bore marching horn.

Trumpet players like a true "bass trumpet" because it's stuffy and thin-sounding.
Tuba players prefer a flugabone because it's a pretty free-blowing valve trombone, but the durned thing gets heavy and your arms get tired, which spoils the fun.

Art Hovey wrote:Trumpet players like a true "bass trumpet" because it's stuffy and thin-sounding.
Tuba players prefer a flugabone because it's a pretty free-blowing valve trombone, but the durned thing gets heavy and your arms get tired, which spoils the fun.

Yes, but not as heavy as a marching euphonium. Again, with the right mp and approah to the sound/style...one can make a flugabone sound "stuffy and thin..."

Well, the Bb large bore Melton you linked to is their "beer hall" band model, not their orchestral model. Its not all that different from a flugabone, really. For the ring, and if we're talking bass trumpet, the ring is pretty much IT, a C instrument works much better because of there are a LOT of high Bs in die walkure and even a few high Es. I believe there is even a high B you come in on cold. Squirrelly note on a Bb trumpet. My high end German bass trumpet has much better intonation than any flugabone or valve trombone I've ever tried, too. Then there's the sound, it's completely different.

a C instrument works much better because of there are a LOT of high Bs in die walkure and even a few high Es.

Not to mention the fortissimo high F-sharp you have to pick off in Das Rheingold.

OK...I just had a look at my Bach. It's ripe for a cut to C, and the (perfect) position of the main slide allows for a simple tubing reversal and addition of a left hand thumb saddle.

I believe Carl Lenthe at IU has one that has been cut to C. I think Bach may have made a few in C at one time or another.

Considering that almost ALL ORCHESTRAL brass instruments in the last hundred years have swung towards larger bores and bells, it seems curious to deny this development to the bass trumpet. In this instance it takes the corporal form of a marching v-tbn. Many sport about a .500 bore, an 8" bell and utilize a small shank mpc, so they're in all respects still much smaller than the average tbn's being used (.547ish, 8.5" bells, large shank mpc's).

I doubt that many listeners would experience the difference in a negative manner. Blending in with the section, sounding good, playing in tune, hitting the notes consistently. Thats, what you're getting paid for. The sound of a bass tpt is different than a m. v-tbn, but is it preferable? Would you really say to yourself 'gee, that doesn't sound like a bass tpt!"?

I imagine there would be a much more discernible difference between an American piston instrument and a German rotary instrument.

I'd really be interested to know what technical specifications differ between the b-tpt and the m. v-tbn other than bell and bore size.

-Pat

bloke wrote: Someday, when I beyond-prototype my bass trumpet mouthpiece, I'd like some of you guys to try it out. It's a different idea (more leaning towards "bass trumpet" rather than "a trombone guy doubling on bass trumpet"). I believe this mouthpiece helps to produce the "bass trumpet" type of sound that some of you are finding in high-$$$$'s instruments. To give you a bit more of an idea about it, the fundamental (with this mouthpiece) is somewhat difficult to reach (just as it is on a soprano trumpet with a typical soprano trumpet mouthpiece).

Since you brought up the idea of a mouthpiece (I'm on the lookout for some new mouthpieces to try and "match" the Euph/Tbn/Tuba playing that I do)....

What kind of mouthpiece do you recommend on a bass trumpet?

Practically speaking, I might be playing a horn like this http://kanstul.com/detail.php?pass_sear ... ty%20Brass" target="_blank at somepoint in the summer. The specs are almost like a bass trumpet. I played on a a European shank MF PS Solo and found it very stuffy....

Just curious...what use is it? Is there any literature to speak of? Orchestral use? Loren

Considering that almost ALL ORCHESTRAL brass instruments in the last hundred years have swung towards larger bores and bells, it seems curious to deny this development to the bass trumpet.

Two problems with this that I can see:

1. While the low brass have gotten radically bigger in the past fifty years or so, the trumpets to a certain extent have gone the other way soundwise. Almost universal use of C trumpet as the primary instrument (in the USA anyway) and much more frequent use of the smaller horns in D and upwards. While trumpets haven't gotten any softer over the years, I think you could make a case that they have gotten more brilliant. Playing a large B-flat bass trumpet or marching vtb might make it easier to blend with the low brass, but you aren't going to sound like a member of the trumpet section.

2. When you look at the Wagner and Strauss parts in particular, they lie comfortably in the middle and upper range of an alto trombone. For me, the key to playing those parts, (which are by far the most substantial bass trumpet parts I get to play) is to get a sound that matches the brilliance of the trumpets, not the heft of the trombone section. Even my Meinl Weston C bass trumpet has a little too much "cornet" in the sound for me. (The bore of that horn starts out smaller than a typical small bore trombone, and the bell throat ends up a little larger than my 42b. The bell diameter is small, but the throat is huge.)

I think the key to playing the bass trumpet in an orchestra is to cheat on your friends in the low brass section and have an affair with the trumpets. If you try to remain faithful to the trombone section, it just won't sound right.

Posaune2 wrote:I think the key to playing the bass trumpet in an orchestra is to cheat on your friends in the low brass section and have an affair with the trumpets. If you try to remain faithful to the trombone section, it just won't sound right.

Spot on. My criteria for judging a bass trumpet's sound is to play something in the upper register, close my eyes, and consider whether I could be fooled into thinking I'm listening to a regular (soprano) trumpet. Alexander, Thein, Laetzsch, Helmut Voigt do it well. The Lidl isn't bad and I imagine the chinese clones of the Lidl are similar. I haven't heard enough of the melton version to tell. Miraphone does not fool me. The american piston valve instruments I have played do not. A flugabone or some sort of marching trombone or baritone is even further away. I imagine a really special mouthpiece could help, but I'm skeptical it'd get you all the way there, and it'd probably cause tuning issues and make the low register difficult?

I used to have a Chinese rotary bass trumpet and an Olds marcher. I could tell a strong difference between them; it seemed to be due to bell size and overall heaviness. A bass trumpet is kinda supposed to be squawky-able. A 6.5 in the bass trumpet was more trumpet-like than a 12C in the bass trumpet.

Posaune2 wrote:While the low brass have gotten radically bigger in the past fifty years or so, the trumpets to a certain extent have gone the other way soundwise. Almost universal use of C trumpet as the primary instrument (in the USA anyway) and much more frequent use of the smaller horns in D and upwards.

I've never understood this. "Mandatory" big trombones and big tubas, "mandatory" smaller trumpets?? It's probably so they can be heard over/against everyone else (the whole ego thing).

bbocaner wrote:...I imagine a really special mouthpiece could help, but I'm skeptical it'd get you all the way there, and it'd probably cause tuning issues and make the low register difficult?...

I think for example the Bach 22D was described as a bass trumpet mouthpiece in an old Bach catalog. For a trombone it is really small, but for a bass trumpet it is good, making the instrument sound as low member of the trumpet family.

Lingon wrote: I think for example the Bach 22D was described as a bass trumpet mouthpiece in an old Bach catalog. For a trombone it is really small, but for a bass trumpet it is good, making the instrument sound as low member of the trumpet family.

Well, the bach 22d may do a pretty good job of getting a bach bass trumpet to sound trumpety rather than trombone-y. I'm not sure it'd get you all the way there if you were starting with an instrument with an even bigger bore and bell/throat like a marching trombone.

But, for example, the thein bass trumpet I have came with a thein german trombone mouthpiece which is pretty close in rim and depth to a 6.5al. And, even using that, it sounds VERY trumpet like -- moreso than the bach bass trumpet does with a 12C (I have never tried one with anything smaller).

1) Bloke, I'd love to try your bass trumpet mouthpiece when you make it... whatever the material

2) Not all the instruments have gotten larger; the horns haven't (depending on the city/country you're discussing) and many major orchestras are exploring the smaller trombones and tubas again.

3) My exploration of the bass trumpet did begin on an Olds/Bach/Reynolds marching thing-a-ma-bob. It was fun, but I was under the impression it was good enough, certainly for Stravinsky and other "band" bass trumpet works. And, I'd already made 3 much smaller bass trumpets for happy customers.

Then came my turn to work up The Ring. Boy, did I have a lot to learn! That high Gb will scare the crap out of you when you first face it, let alone a few Ebs, Es and Fs. I made a new instrument for myself with a Chinese valveset (problem-free, so far) and an ancient, tiny French Besson bell. Had to do some tweaks, and added a main slide tuning ring for the wide variety of tuning necessary as you wonder around The Ring. The Ride, you're a horn-ish player, then a trumpet, a trombone... you're part of everything. You’re a

This instrument isn't anymore standardized than the tuba. And so we have to look at the literature and the sonic palate we're a part of, and the history of, in this case, "where the %$@# did this come from?!?".

I have a little essay of my exploration on my website. Bottom line - Bb vs. C isn't going to be a big deal of help, any more than on tuba, or C vs. Bb in the regular trumpets, range wise or transposition wise. I have an easier time with the Bb, and my instrument has an excellent high end. I use the Bach 22D mouthpiece and it's a terrific match.

I'd be interested in the results of an Olds cut to C; I'd think it'd be a little brighter, and you can even consider trimming the bell rim or replacing the flare. Either way, I'd be fascinated with the results!

J.c.S. (who still thinks an alto trombone with a trigger may be the best solution...)

J.c. Sherman wrote: ... and many major orchestras are exploring the smaller trombones and tubas again...

We did Mahler's 2nd tonight. Our trbn section was a tiny bit smaller than the usual bigger is better philosophy with Yamaha 892ZX, Bach 36, Bach 42, Holton TR185. Worked well and sounded quite fresh...

Very interesting discussion!

I am currently playing a yamaha custom rotary C for the wagnery stuff, with an 11C type mouthpiece, and it blends well with the bones and not so bad with the horns, and somewhat well with the trumpets. I will try and find a 22E or something.

I have a flugabone/marching trombone, and the intonation is god-awful, not to mention stuffy. It seems to me like it's really a cornet type instrument. Am I wrong there?
For Janacek next month I will use a Bach or the orchestra's Holton, because it will lie better. Rheingold was much better last spring with the Yamaha (which I assume is based on an Alex or something). The Holton has great valves and a lovely sound, with only a couple of notes that bug me.