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So I'm sitting here wondering which models are the 9s.

Does "problem" = "one note that needs attention" ?

Say the fifth partial is super duper flat on an instrument in F, so the open A, 2nd valve G#, and G are all super duper flat. Is that one problem or three?

I put 9 for the Haag

With so much straight pipe, it's really easy to put a main tuning slide up top where it's easily accessible (alla Marzan).

bloke wrote:I've seldom played these types of instruments, but it seems to me that the main job of the left hand might need to be stabilizing the instrument.

Dunno. I built mine so the peg sits on the chair, and the instrument's well balanced. Left hand rests easily on the main slide. Works for me.

Well, I have two...

One is a slide instrument in F; before someone then says “it ain't a cimbasso”, then the folks next to me ain't playin' trombones either. The bones play slides, so I usually join them because I can. However, the bore profile of mine is a bit weightier than the normal F contra-bone to better match the contrabass/BBb/cimbasso expectation.

As it is a slide instrument, the intonation is (potentially) perfect.

My BBb valved instrument, posted to another thread, has excellent intonation as well. .640 bore.

The larger Kalison F cimbasso I've played was a very malleable beast - I liked it a lot. Large bore, great sound, and not much slide use required. But it was a nice option.

The Eb instrument I’m working one I predict will be very good. .562 bore. It’ll have a main slide throw, however.

YMMV.

J.c.S.

Of course, a "real" cimbasso has holes in it

And the the first modern one was a slide instrument by Alexander

I think the Haag plays very well in tune as well! I haven't played the Lätzsch in a section but it also seems to be very well in tune...I'm not a fan of the Meinl, at least not their F model. I hope to get some time with the G & P in a few weeks when we play the Scala in Milan, I hope to visit their workshop then...

Cheers, fellow cimbassonistas!

//Mattis

Thanks for this one, Bloke.

Whether or not it was your intention, for me this post is an extension of your previous one in which you submitted the prospect of trading in a marching valve trombone for a "traditional" bass trumpet.

And now the contra-brothers post; the modern day cimbasso (emphasize on "modern day" if you please).

Tim Sulliven, a board member, once said to me (and I really hope I quote him correctly) that valved-cylindrical instruments tend to get stuffier the lower they get. More so than the conical brass.

If we consider this to be a given, then in my opinion it "might" explain" (big might) why cimbassi took so long to come unto their own; technology. Wasn't it finally at the end of the 20th century that technicians were finally able to make tenor and bass cylindrical instruments of a quality comparable to the rest of the brass world?

I think there is a lot to be done in the low valved-cylindrical field. And in this respect the question as to the state of one's cimbasso intonation, combined with further questioning about proportions (bore-size, etc) seems not only relevant, but paramount. We are talking about an instrument (the cimbasso) that is establishing itself more and more in the musical community. Its only fitting that we demand the same kind of technical refinement in a cimbasso as we do in all the other brass instruments. Clean response, open sound, workable intonation.

In order to do this, we need to bring the battle-field experiences back home. Many cimbassi are home made. Almost all are shaped like a large cavaliers trombone, and are made from existing tuba valve blocks. The bore size seems to rotate around the available valve block. The majority are played by tuba players and we all want to use a mpc size which is at least in the ball park of what we use on our tubas.

Seeing that Bloke's request is oriented towards F cimbasso, I'll withhold my cimbasso's measurements (being a BBb horn with a rather large quad-druppel bore, thus irrelevant), but would love to see if there are conclusions to be drawn from this post other than of the "Haag cimbasso #1" type.

-Patrick

pjv wrote: In order to do this, we need to bring the battle-field experiences back home. Many cimbassi are home made. Almost all are shaped like a large cavaliers trombone, and are made from existing tuba valve blocks. The bore size seems to rotate around the available valve block. The majority are played by tuba players and we all want to use a mpc size which is at least in the ball park of what we use on our tubas.

This is an interesting point. I'm a bass trombone player, doubling on Cimbasso and Tuba (WDR big Band), and play the Haag cimbasso. Franz Monschau who builds it makes trombones, not tubas. In fact it's based on his contrabass trombone. I play it with a contrabass trombone-sized mouthpiece as well, albeit with a different cup and backbore. The valves are all Hagmann, also being of the trombone world rather then the tuba-verse. Maybe this is why I like it so much? (NO offense, tuba friends!) The same goes for Lätzsch, who is also a trombone maker at heart...funny that I never thought of that before...

//Mattis

No offense taken, at least on my part.

But then again I also play trombone!

Anyway, I've played Haag before and they're very high quality professional horns. But even still, there's always room for improvement.

I think the big challenge with cimbassi is getting them to blow as free as possible. OK, and play in tune.

OK, and do something about the cavaliers trombone shape...really unhandy.

Does anyone know what the difference in sound would be if one was to make a cimbasso in bell-front tuba form? (like Jim Selfs Selfone). It'd sure help balance issues, as well as eliminating the dent sensitive bow behind the players head.

-Pat

"Freeblowing" is subjective to some extent, I think. As great a thing as it is I think one must have different expectations regarding the feel of different instruments...the modern cimbasso is a fairly new creature and it being rare and also very expensive leads to a scene where comparatively few have had the chance to spend any serious time with a really good one. I see a lot of people putting horns together from some old scrap parts and, when not succeeding in producing a professional class instrument, dismissing the idea of the cimbasso as a "toy" or "gimmick". Not all, but some. Due to the general lack of availability, another common practice seems to be to pick up a cimbasso and just expect it to play great right away, even if you never played one before (usually with your regular tuba mouthpiece as well). How can one even begin to gauge whether an instrument is any good, in tune etc without having a proper frame of reference? My experience is that it plays nothing like a bass trombone OR a tuba. It took me a long time to find the sound I was looking for, an arduous process of ample practicing, finding the right mouthpiece (a huge part of finding the sound) and even some hardware changes. As with any instrument, if we are expecting proper results, we have to put in the work.This said, I do hope that the instrument will continue to develop. I'm guessing that as the repertoire changes, as new pieces are written, new genres embrace the instrument etc, more players will pick it up and thus the market will broaden. I know that Franz keeps having new ideas to try out and I'd guess that that goes for a lot of the other top builders as well. As more of us try to master the instrument they'll get more feedback and that will certainly lead to new developments.

As far as balance, shape etc I don't feel that that's really a problem, I even play it standing up sometimes...

Like here, playing Donna Lee http://youtu.be/p1DNl8BF49U

Live Long And Prosper

//Mattis

bloke wrote:

UncleBeer wrote:

bloke wrote:I've seldom played these types of instruments, but it seems to me that the main job of the left hand might need to be stabilizing the instrument.

Dunno. I built mine so the peg sits on the chair, and the instrument's well balanced. Left hand rests easily on the main slide. Works for me.

"like"

Some of the manufactured ones in particular (though very "cool-looking") seem to beg for problems of up-down and left-right stability.

Here's a picture of mine Joe:



It's pretty much the valve section of an HB2, cut to Eb. The bell is the last few inches of a french horn bell, and the rest was sheet brass (for conical sections), straight pipe, and stock rod.

Wow, that looks like marvelous beast!! What does it sound like?

I remember seeing a picture of it before, it looks a LOT bigger with a person holding it.

Why do all the factory horns have the bell so far forward? It seems it would be harder to get an accurate sense of volume and do mute changes.

quesonegro wrote:Wow, that looks like marvelous beast!! What does it sound like?

Like a cimbasso! Or at least what I think a cimbasso should sound like. I started on trombone, and logged a bunch of hours on bass trombone at NTSU as well, so have that sound in my head when I play this axe.

The valve section is my Eb "project" section, so can be plugged into whatever Eb creature I may have lying around.

bloke wrote: I've seldom played these types of instruments, but it seems to me that the main job of the left hand might need to be stabilizing the instrument.

To play while standing, are any of them a practical alternative to the contrabass trombone? There's no "helico-cimbasso", I guess.

The BBb cimbasso Tim Sullivan made for me has a very long sturdy pin fastened in two places for standing. It works great and seeing that a most of my playing is done standing I'm quite thankful for this feature.

-Patrick

You'll never stop the wiggle entirely with a top heavy horn of the proportions of a cimbasso, but having a larger peg with at least two contact points helps.

I think if anyone really had the time and energy they should be able to develop a a hollow peg with a substantially larger diameter (kinda like a pvc pipe). Much more stable.

BTW, Tim also made a stand for this horn from...a cymbal stand. Nothing like percussion hardware for strenth and reliability.
Cheers,
Pat

A little more information for those who may be interested. The horn (as I've said) is essentially a 19mm tuba valve section, a length of straight pipe, a cobbled-together bell, and a leadpipe. None of these were difficult to make, and as you can see, I've got *no* soldering skills whatsoever. But.it.plays.

Here's the bell by itself (the perspective's a little weird; I stuck to the standard "1/3 conical, 2/3 cylindrical" formula, which the picture doesn't really reflect):



And here's the length of straight pipe I concocted to go between valves and bell:



I had a GREAT time building this, and really enjoy every opportunity I have to whup this out.