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Can anyone comment on the "upgraded" Jinbao F? Despite the expensive fiasco with NW, I'm still looking for a low priced F.

As M&M has not showed any pictures of the upgrade, I do not believe any real upgrade of the instrument exist.
Quotes from the ones who claimed to have purchased the upgraded version support this.

What I'd call someone who doubles the price on a product claiming it's something totally different?

There's a thread on this. It's got a red brass lead pipe.

Changing the leadpipe to gold brass might make it more or less corrosion resistant
than the original and change the tonal balance a tad, but it will do nothing to the intonation

RRW wrote:Here is my take on the JinBao 600 F. Dispite all the early hoopla that they were the next best thing to the goose that laid the golden egg, time showed that the intonation problems were legion so much so that Mack Brass and Wessex no longer carry them. Is that about right? As far as M&M: fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, well you can't fool me again.

Still a fun instrument. Valves are good. Build seems good. Compression excellent, but unfortunate....quite challenging.
And for the price M&M sell it, there's in fact very good F tubas to be had.

This must be the first tube I've seen having 200%+ more aggressive taper than average (of tapered area) straight after the valve block

M&M F Tuba was displayed at The US Army Tuba Convention Last January and The Florida Music Ed Convention

At that time The New F Tuba was played and tested by many players and received AAA 1 coments

All F instruments were sold to sadified Tuba players and we took orders to fill

F Tubas are not for every one , since the F fingerings and sound is differant than a BBb tuba

We have The standard model F in Stock , that plays well, also the modified F model , we cant show pictures of inside the instrument at this time but we are working at it

Thank you

M&M

I don't know if the M&M F is improved, or not - but if it is, then must be post production as JinBao say they only make one version of the JBFB-600.

I think the big problem for M&M is unless they clearly explain what they have done to correct deficiencies, then people disbelieve!

And then if a solution has been found to the tuning difficulties, then why do not M&M just ask JinBao to incorporate in production models to everyone's benefit rather than carry on this farce?

LJV wrote: Resllers here seem to all distinguish themselves as being different and better than the next tbecause of these custom touches.

I've missed that. The only one I've noticed doing that is M&M. What customizations have others mentioned?

I have nothing against M&M retaining their "intellectual property". My point is simply that the factory say they don't make a special version for anyone. They don't need to be secretive, as there are other models JinBao openly will not supply Wessex for this reason.

Kudos to M&M if they have solved the intonation problems!

Neptune wrote: ...I think the big problem for M&M is unless they clearly explain what they have done to correct deficiencies, then people disbelieve!...

True, or at least it would be nice if some of the regular TN posters or some known players that have had the possibility to test could confirm. For now I think it unfortunately seems to be only a hearsay.

Neptune wrote: ...And then if a solution has been found to the tuning difficulties, then why do not M&M just ask JinBao to incorporate in production models to everyone's benefit rather than carry on this farce?...

Exactly what I think _all_ sellers of these instruments should do to the benefit of the whole tuba community, or at least the believers. In particular because, as Neptune and others have stated, the factory is willing to do modifications.
However, at least until now, it seems to be impossible to cooperate in that way and it also seems that each seller will incorporate their improvements to make their own branded same instruments more valuable than the others. Or have I missed something? I.e. cooperation may lead to improvements for everyone?!

Many of these instruments are already good, but making them the Kaizen way, where everyone involved strives for better results, they would hopefully constantly improve.

bloke wrote:btw, When are the Chinese going to design their OWN models, rather than copying others' ? Surely they are smart enough to do that...

I have plans for Wessex new models made in China which will not be copies - all going well, you will see in 2013!

As things stand, I think the Chinese factories are probably busy enough bringing western dealers proposed plans to fruition, be they copies, or completely new models without wasting resources trying to design something themselves which may not sell. Brass production in China is a completely different business model to the west - with end sellers, rather than the factories taking the lead in future instrument development.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=49080&p=423511#p423350

Neptune wrote:JinBao (and other factories - there are many in China!) are prepared to customise instruments for different sellers, so they are not necessarily the same from different sources. For example JinBao are making some changes to the 700 EEb specifically for Wessex Tubas and the British market of which I will announce more once I have prototypes, expected May.

The compensated BBb tuba I am getting changes made to improve tuning and in response to customer feedback I plan to enhance other instruments as time goes on and we get feedback on the existing models...these will all be improvements specifically for Wessex Tubas...

Neptune wrote:I have nothing against M&M retaining their "intellectual property". My point is simply that the factory say they don't make a special version for anyone. They don't need to be secretive, as there are other models JinBao openly will not supply Wessex for this reason.

Kudos to M&M if they have solved the intonation problems!

Neptune wrote:

bloke wrote:btw, When are the Chinese going to design their OWN models, rather than copying others' ? Surely they are smart enough to do that...

I have plans for Wessex new models made in China which will not be copies - all going well, you will see in 2013!

As things stand, I think the Chinese factories are probably busy enough bringing western dealers proposed plans to fruition, be they copies, or completely new models without wasting resources trying to design something themselves which may not sell. Brass production in China is a completely different business model to the west - with end sellers, rather than the factories taking the lead in future instrument development.

Contradictions galore...

No contradictions - let's clarify.

Firstly the factories will individually customize - that is what is happening for the JBEB-700 to suit Wessex specifications. What I tried to indicate before was that JinBao say they do not make a improved version of the JBFB-600 for anyone else. I cannot see why they should lie?

If a dealer develops new models, or model customisation then obviously they are their models and intellectual property - no argument there. However when a solution is found to make an existing poor model play well, then it is in everyone's benefit to apply to all production. Otherwise the model continues to have bad reputation, even if those from one seller are 'improved'. Wessex feedback to the factories continually to improve their production, hopefully to everyone's benefit. If M&M choose not to share their 'solution', then that is their choice - but could be counter productive even to their own sales as the disbelieve in this thread indicates.

KiltieTuba wrote: Besides, arranging is slightly less of a problem than straight copying of a design

This is going off-track, but how do you figure this?

As far as I know, composers get commisions for their works and derivatives. Are instrument designers extended the same rights, or do they just concede their design to some company? Aren't some models being cloned partially in Public Domain? (Isn't that why, afterall a whole bunch of Euphonium clones came out in the early 90's, when the Besson/ Boosey patent expired?)

Isn't arranging just taking the source material and applying very little transformation (so that is recognizable, usually in the form of a different instrumentation or some "spiced" up harmonies).

Doesn't that sound a lot like cloning...

Shouldn't there be some kind of payment/recognition due to the original creator, in both cases?

I have one of these upgraded Instruments.
(Needed a low price F, to practice at office from time to time, while yamaha f is at home. I was also interested in trying a 6 valve tuba)

I never played a "regular" model so I can't compare.

Don't want to say this is a bad Instrument, the sound is nice.
But the intonation is as described often in this forum. (f to play with 23.....)

michaelkeys wrote:I have one of these upgraded Instruments.

Don't want to say this is a bad Instrument, the sound is nice.
But the intonation is as described often in this forum. (f to play with 23.....)

And that is the message I keep hearing...
That is what I'd like a comment from M&M on

The instrument might be upgraded, but the real issues has not at all been addressed!

Swapping the leadpipe from german silver to copper-brass should not increase the price.

I would much rather donate that money to NW to put him on his feet again.....

Or maybe not.......

bloke wrote:The "new style" Miraphone 181 (not the one which was a PT-10 knock-off, but the one that looks basically like a 281) featured the same (imo) unusably sharp F in the staff.

He he....So I've heard. The Firebird and the bigger brother
Belcanto has some intonation issues...Not too surprisingly..

"Bestprice" is a enthusiastic amateur in Australia who was taken for $4200 by you-know-who and is still looking for an afforable F. We have no resellers of Jinbao in Australia, thus the question about M&M. It's a genuine question, no straw involved.

bloke wrote:I can't imagine the 281 having any intonation issues whatsoever.

http://www.wwbw.com/Miraphone-281-Firebird-Series-6-Valve-4-4-F-Tuba-463921-i1413089.wwbw?esid wrote:The Miraphone 281 Firebird 6 Valve F Tuba has the best intonation of any F tuba available.

well...I'm only quoting a tubaplayer in one of the bigger orchestras in Norway as he was just crusing Europe hunting an F tuba.
The 5V was BTW better sounding but intonation pretty much the same.

As you...I trust him more than a sales add

He's sporting some blokepieces ATM BTW.

These Fs are head-scratchers. There's a visibly bizarre taper after the valve section - it's freaking enormous and over-quick. It looks like intonation would be well served by either a conical valve bore or a seriously gentler taper on the top bow and tuning slide. The second solution might be worth purchasing one to "fix". It's such a small instrument; I cannot comprehend this tuning slide/top bow taper. I'd bet big money that the source of the devilish intonation.

Hmmm....

J.c.S.