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How fast does a passage have to be before you take "easier" fingerings that you know aren't going to give perfect intonation?

I am playing a band arrangement of the Roman Carnival Overture by Berlioz and have found that I can get a much smoother, more fluid line in the exposed tuba solo if I cheat on a few notes. On my particular horn, the D and Eb in the staff have to be fingered 13 and 23 respectively to get them perfectly in tune. But the passage is in a very fast 6/8 (around dotted quarter = 160) and I can blow through the phrase using 1 for the D and 2 for the Eb, knowing they are kind of flat. The same situation goes for the low D (normally have to use 4). But at high speed - and coming from the Eb above it - I find that cheating by using 13 gives me an easier time and a much smoother connection. There is no time for pulling the first valve slide.

Here is a video of the piece: the solo in question is at 7:03, played in this performance by a pair of low woodwinds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWaKkfb1Nbg

Obviously, at this speed, I can almost certainly get away with it. But it got me thinking.

Thoughts?

I not only do that, but I will also occasionally use less than ideal fingerings which may or may not work to play cleaner slurs.

"Doesn't work but does"-
-slurring 13 to 23 on a rotary tuba
"Doesn't work but does and still plays in tune easily, oddly enough"-
-playing low D 512 on a 56J for cleaner slurs to E and such

Remember folks, you're the one playing the pitch.

Anything where I can mumble "it's an effect" afterwards

Trevor Bjorklund wrote:...How fast does a passage have to be before you take "easier" fingerings that you know aren't going to give perfect intonation?...

As long as you can have it sounding correct you are free to do it in a way that works, even if there are other ways to do it after the book so to say. It is a very useful art to be able to cheat without anyone noticing. Some passages are almost or really not possible to play in tempo exactly like you can slower. In some situations you have to do the job even if it is impossible...

Trevor, thanks for asking the question I wantred to ask but afraid of getting blasted. I've only been back to playing for apporx. 15 months since a 38 yr. hiatus (high school). I play in a church brass ensemble maily but have since enrolled in the Univ. of SC regional campus Community Band as a part of their adult Continuing Ed. program and have been getting my butt cut by Sousa marches and now the Light Calvary Overture.

Cut time on the former and a brisk 6/8 time on the later. I know, not nearly as fast as what you are dealing with but the principle is the same.

I see and know the notes and fingerings but the brain, lips and fingers don't react at 55 as they did at 17.

I've tried taking it slow and graudally adding speed but I get to a point where I hit the wall. A run of 1/8 notes at 126-132 per is an a$$ kicker, let alone 140 or even 160 per.

There, I've bared my tuba soul, fire away. My sig, tells the tale however, the three valves are clean and well oiled.

Jim

Trevor,
Play it in the most comfortable way.
Don't worry, at that speed no one is able to hear any lack of intonation.
Best luck,
Lars

For me, I use alternate fingering when I can no longer play the passage well, due to the speed.

Thanks for the responses.

It's funny... the same day I post this little 'concern' and then I get Fillmore's Circus Bee assigned in my other band. And that director likes to take circus marches at circus tempo so I'm looking at almost exactly the same kind of fake-fingering situation, but even faster.

Jim - first off, congrats on getting back on the axe. What a great way to spend retirement!
One thing I've learned about fast passages is that the mechanics are the same as the slow ones and sometimes have to be broken down:
1) enough air through the phrase
2) buzz has to be the right notes
3) fingers have to hit the right keys at the same time as the buzz (be really glad you don't have a trombone slide to deal with!)
4) tonguing (where applicable)

Most of the time I have to go back and fix #2... the instrument just can't center notes that I'm buzzing at the wrong frequency. I buzz the mouthpiece and work on it slowly, then faster and faster. When I get the buzz up to speed, then I add fingers (or slide) at a slower tempo and work it back up to speed. Then finally tonguing if necessary. If I just can't get the buzz to work (or any of the other elements) and there is not enough time for my slow brain to learn everything correctly, I will actually drop some in-between notes so as not to cause my own personal train-wreck.

Finally, I've found that working on a tough phrase diligently for a few days only works if I then take a week away from the piece. Somehow the myriad "wrong" ways I was playing it fall away and I'm left with the muscle memory of the one "right" way that got hard-wired in during the learning process.

Here's a related thread documenting a similar situation I encountered a while back.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25482" target="_blank" target="_blank

My favorite technique in a band (with several tubas) - let the guy to my right play the fast runs, and concentrate on hitting the downbeat on the next measure
cleanly and on time. It ends up being a lot cleaner, AND the section doesn't drag.

On S&SF, I've long been a proponent of playing it as written in the original score...

This reminds me of band workshop I went to tutored by players from the famous Black Dyke Mills Bands 20 years ago. We were working on a test piece that had a very tricky demi-semi quaver fast run with lots of accidentals. Before a session I was busy pencilling in the accidentals and alternative fingering to try to get as best as I could when the Black Dyke bass player came in and saw what I was doing. He said to my surprise "don't bother doing that! It passes far too fast for anyone to hear individual notes - just do like we do, start and finish on right notes, and waggle your fingers in the middle!"

Thanks all for the tips. Kenneth, I wish I could let the player next to me do some of the work but as the only tubist, I'm stuck. The nice looking bari sax player in front of me does help carry me along on some parts. When I asked if she played in a group, she told me she majored in saxophone. Experience is everything.

As President Reagan once said; "the key to success is surrounding yourself with good people."

I'll keep plugging away.
Jim

Neptune wrote:This reminds me of band workshop I went to tutored by players from the famous Black Dyke Mills Bands 20 years ago. We were working on a test piece that had a very tricky demi-semi quaver fast run with lots of accidentals. Before a session I was busy pencilling in the accidentals and alternative fingering to try to get as best as I could when the Black Dyke bass player came in and saw what I was doing. He said to my surprise "don't bother doing that! It passes far too fast for anyone to hear individual notes - just do like we do, start and finish on right notes, and waggle your fingers in the middle!"

I play the passage slowly to get the pitches memorized, then a finger waggle with some appropriate fingerings at tempo will work pretty well for me. But I ain't as fast anymore either as I used to think I was.

gwwilk wrote: I play the passage slowly to get the pitches memorized, then a finger waggle with some appropriate fingerings at tempo will work pretty well for me. But I ain't as fast anymore either as I used to think I was.

Just keep pedaling as fast as you can.

When I played in a brass band (a long time ago now) we did the same thing for some passages - we called it "fluffing"

Kind of has a different meaning these days.....

The possibly best known British euphonium player once, in vito, showed me how he eased a fast solo passage by fingering high Gb 1 as a 7th partial as an alternative to 23 as an 8th partial.

A retired DC Marine Band euphonium player once reported on taking a similar shortcut in a fast unisono passage during one of his first concerts with that band. After the concert the lead clarinet confronted him and told him to never ever do such thing again.

The human ear is said to be more liberal on minor pitch deviations in linear contexts than in vertical ditto’s. But unisono passages are very much about creating clean vertical situations. A block of notes well in pitch have a very much different character from a block of notes where one or more notes deviate from the clean unisono. If a passages fluctuates between clean and out-of-tune notes this is perceived as rhythmic accentuations never intended by the composer.

My ears don’t like minor sevenths that are sharp. Neither they like flattish leading notes. Any trombonist will choose positions according to note function. Shouldn’t we choose fingerings by the same parameters?

Klaus

bloke wrote:...The "backing off of the fast notes" thing is very much "old school" tuba playing...

But of course, the goal should always be to play everything as it is meant to play. However, in some situations it is maybe not possible. Then it is essential to be able to have it sound like playing what is written even if you do not. That is is also something that must be practiced. Not so much nowadays but let's say a couple of decades ago the composers wrote a lot of stuff that was plain unplayable, thankfully that happens more seldom nowadays. I have been in such situations when practicing orchestral parts for long time but not being able to play everthing as written. Then when talking with the composer got replies as 'well, you do not have to play everything, it is not meant to, it is just to give you the idea of approximatelyy how it should sound' (that statement is never written in the part though)... I have even heard from one composer something like 'I always write so difficult that the musicians would not be able to play it'... However, his works did sound good, so in some way the musicians were able to play approx what was intended even if they did not play exactly what was written.

That's the one side, the other side are those parts that are playable but difficult where it is essential to play nothing else than what is written... The solution for that too, practice...

Always strive for playing as good as you can, then take it one step further. Practice makes perfect, at least that is the thought... Everything ends up in the most important detail, have fun.

bloke wrote:I might prefer to hear a simplified passage over a sloughed-over very difficult passage.

My thoughts exactly. Well executed silence is preferable to mud.

I can't remember the name of the piece, but in community band a few years ago we had a piece that went along at a fairly good clip, and the end of a particular section was descending 16th notes from bottom line G to low G. The rest of the section was frantically trying to figure out fingerings and how to manage it. I took one glance, announced boldly to the section, "G melodic minor descending," and proceeded to nail it in one take on the concert tape. We played it a few more times after that, and the rest of the guys, in spite of my clueing them in, never got it.

Practice your scales.

Another piece was in an odd over eighth time signature with a syncopated ostenato-style bass line that actually had written near-pedal D, playable 234 on a BBb as the root, but the rest of the figure was more than an octave above that. I knew nobody, especially the director, was going to call any of us out for not playing the low D, especially as the figure was in eighth notes moving along moderato, and unless the player was absolutely clean and consistent for the entire piece, the figure was going to turn to mud. So, instead, I played 1st ledger line + space D with the usual 12 fingering and kept the line moving and articulated properly.

sloan wrote:My thoughts exactly. Well executed silence is preferable to mud.

I concur wholeheartedly!!!

sloan wrote:

bloke wrote:...Well executed silence is preferable to mud...

Thinking of John Cage 4'33"?