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Id love to have one added to my King , why arent there more college/ universities blowing through 4 valves ? I understand " jr. cant carry the extra weight .." but for intonation and the sheer awe of 30 university sousaphonists all blowin pedals in a stadium ? I'd love to hear it ! and then I could pick up a used one on the cheap !

KiltieTuba wrote:Jupiter and the Chinese make the only 4 valve sousaphones, that's why...

yeah , but why isnt there a King or a Conn ? someone should offer a pro grade sousy ...

bloke wrote:The era of four-valve sousaphones was the era of non-amplified professional dance bands. My impression is that the original concept of the sousaphone was not necessarily for use in secondary schools' marching bands. The fact that there are a few models of four-valve sousaphones manufactured today speaks to the fact that there are 6.X billion people in the world, and if someone has thought that they might like to buy something, someone else is probably already manufacturing it and offering it for sale.

Exactly. I've been playing some old 78 rpm records I have in preparing for some jazz/dance band WWII & Korean War reunion concerts this summer to reinforce proper style and interpretion of the bass lines of the time. Especially on the orchestra recordings I'm also listening to, confirmed by a band director friend's ears, you can definitely tell which ones are recorded with a recording bell tuba or souzy instead of upright bass, and the intonation is good enough on the problem notes that it is more than likely a 4-valve.

KiltieTuba wrote:

bloke wrote:The 4-valve Jupiter is larger bore than the 3-valve.

Well, the 3-valve is a King copy.

I forgot, Weril also makes a four valve sousaphone.

jamsav wrote:yeah , but why isnt there a King or a Conn ? someone should offer a pro grade sousy ...

No market. It's been asked before. The running theme is that the added weight, cost, and poor design, won't entice the Universities to switch over from their 20Ks or 2350s. There just isn't a market for four valve sousaphones, especially in BBb.... maybe if they were CC, but then them kids would need a fifth valve, which would increase the cost and eliminate the market.

It's one thing for individuals to purchase expensive 4-valve instruments, but for Universities to invest in BBb sousaphones, when the instructors clearly want their students to learn CC, it just doesn't make sense. Besides, some high school kids entering into college just want to have some fun blowing on a three valver... it's less confusing

Ian -

You are *kind of* correct. In my opinion, it's the OVERALL cost of the instrument that does it. Also (again in my opinion) intonation isn't enough of a factor to compensate for the extra weight and extra cost of a 4 valve Sousaphone.

King and Conn don't make four valve Sousaphones because "if it ain't broke..." Conn/King haven't made a four valve Sousa in DECADES for good reason; cost+weight=low demand.

Weril makes a four valve Sousaphone for Dynasty. Their Sousaphones are modeled after Eastlake, OH production Conn 20K's. They are *slightly* different though. The bore size on the Weril/Dynasty is .730" and the bell flare on a Weril/Dynasty is THICKER (in my opinion). The tapers, bracing style and slide configuration are similar though.

The routing of the 4th valve on the dynasty is interesting. It comes out of the cluster and follows the 3rd and 4th branches around the player, unlike the Conn 40K which would double back around the 5th branch (I hope this makes sense without a photo...)

KiltieTuba wrote:Jupiter and the Chinese make the only 4 valve sousaphones, that's why...

4-valve helicons are available from Cerveny in BBb and F.
http://www.cerveny.biz/helikone/" target="_blank" target="_blank

BRSousa wrote: Weril makes a four valve Sousaphone for Dynasty. Their Sousaphones are modeled after Eastlake, OH production Conn 20K's. They are *slightly* different though. The bore size on the Weril/Dynasty is .730" and the bell flare on a Weril/Dynasty is THICKER (in my opinion). The tapers, bracing style and slide configuration are similar though.

The routing of the 4th valve on the dynasty is interesting. It comes out of the cluster and follows the 3rd and 4th branches around the player, unlike the Conn 40K which would double back around the 5th branch (I hope this makes sense without a photo...)

That is interesting! The 4th branch on my 1929 Conn catches me right in the diaphragm (even after I had it reshaped 20 years ago - maybe my diaphragm has grown a bit? ) The Dynasty website picture is not clear enough, but this is a bit better. (use the zoom tool.) Is there a spit-valve somewhere on the 4th pipe where I can't see it?

KiltieTuba wrote:
The Jupiter reminds me of Buescher, while the Dynasty leaves me wondering how you empty water from that bottom bow and how long the slide is (looks to be about 2-3 inches on each side, meaning maybe 1.5 inch pull).

I have had very little problem with 4th valve tuning on any of my horns - no matter if it is a tuba, helicon or sousaphone!

Water is a totally different problem...

bloke wrote:Is the Weril sousaphone (setting the 4th valve aside) more like a 20K, or more like a (also "large", but - imo - a dud) Yamaha 411 ?

In my opinion they want it to be more like a 20K. For me, I can get a nice sound on the Weril and the response is good for me. You're experience may vary. When I was at the Weril factory a few years ago they had an Eastlake 20K hanging up with their prototypes that they used to help with their design. I have a photo of this somewhere, I just need to dig it up. I also have a few photos of Sousaphone assembly jigs and in-process factory photos from Weril. I just haven't had the opportunity to post it to the blog yet. (YES I am still writing it and I am not dead...)

I'd take the 4-valve Cerveny Helicon in BBb over a 4-valve sousaphone any day. It's basically a tuba you can wear. Plays better, sounds better, first and third valve slides move (vs. just decoration on most sousaphones), etc. We spend all that time practicing, developing great sound, chops, etc. and then play stuffy old sousaphones. Wouldn't it be nice to wear and play a responsive, good sounding horn instead?

My 2 cents (which is gets less valuable with every word I type) for what it's worth.

Mike

P.S. The Eb would be nice, too!

What I don't like about the east european helicon's

-lead pipe position. The mpc always comes out around my adam's apple. I think these horns were made for men without necks.

-valve positon. It's positioned in such a way that I have to bend my wrist at a 90 degree angle in order to play it.

-bell position. Less of an issue, but its no fun constantly trying to guess whether or not I'm playing in my colleagues ear.

-rotary valves. Also not a big deal, but I've never been a fan of them. Way too much mechanics between a finger and a valve. Perinet all the way. Finger, valve, press. Now if I could hear a musical reason to justify such a fragile and complicated system, that'd be different.

For all the reason's above I like the sousaphone.

What I don't like? Although I love the fact that I can adjust the mpc to my mouth (as apposed to the other way around, like on a tuba), I'm not crazy about the sacrifice for this. I get a much more predictable and even response from a tuba and I think this in part has to do with the lead pipe. I could be wrong on this. I'd much rather have a one-piece lead pipe and find another method to get the mpc to my face ( a car-jack like shoulder rest or something).

-Pat

Michael Grant wrote:I'd take the 4-valve Cerveny Helicon in BBb over a 4-valve sousaphone any day. It's basically a tuba you can wear. Plays better, sounds better, first and third valve slides move (vs. just decoration on most sousaphones), etc. We spend all that time practicing, developing great sound, chops, etc. and then play stuffy old sousaphones. Wouldn't it be nice to wear and play a responsive, good sounding horn instead?

My 2 cents (which is gets less valuable with every word I type) for what it's worth.

Mike

P.S. The Eb would be nice, too!

The Cerveny 4RV helicons come in BBb, Eb, and F.

Hard cases are unavilable, which is an important drawback (relevant to the tongue-in-cheek question asking why no high school purchases of four-valvers).

Pat's right - I've got a helicon and a sousaphone and they are just different instruments.

The helicon doesn't really suit trad jazz or New Orleans stuff (not to mention how knackering it is to play a big helicon in that style) and the sousaphone sucks for playing Balkan music (even though it's an easier blow).

They could certainly do a better job of designing helicons for people who have necks.

Michael Grant wrote:P.S. The Eb would be nice, too!

The Eb presents the best (or worst?) example of the complaints above about wrist ergonomics, because it's a tighter fit. The F is an open loop, so different deal. (Disclaimer, I haven't seen a recent Cerveny label Eb, and haven't heard from anyone who has, but I have a somewhat older Eb from same place.) It works OK for me, but isn't ideal. The neck vs. leadpipe problem is no different, but might be mitigated a little by the lighter weight.

It would be a shame to entirely write off the helicon for New Orleans or traditional jazz. I don't know if it's this way so much today, but I think a few years back that was the main use for helicons in the US. Meanwhile, the Balkan influenced bands I've seen in the US use sousaphones.

I'm totally up for helicons in trad jazz and New Orleans and sousas in Balkan music - and it can totally work (and I do it myself sometimes for no other reason than I just feel like it). I guess I just prefer the obvious choices soundwise.

They are really different beasts though.

Donn wrote:

Michael Grant wrote:P.S. The Eb would be nice, too!

It would be a shame to entirely write off the helicon for New Orleans or traditional jazz. I don't know if it's this way so much today, but I think a few years back that was the main use for helicons in the US. Meanwhile, the Balkan influenced bands I've seen in the US use sousaphones.

Old American helicons (piston) work very well for New Orleans or traditional jazz. Allan Jaffe played almost nothing else, but his son Ben can be seen operating a Sousaphone (or even Double-Bass on occasion) with the current Preservation Hall band. There are also many helicon driven bands at Sacramento Jazz Fest (now called Sacramento Music Festival, BTW.)

Agreed on this - those helicons would work much better than the Czech instruments.