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bloke wrote: The tubas were behind the beat and were difficult to hear in the recording.

I've seen an annoying trend among recording engineers the last decade or so: close-miking everyone (including percussion!) except the brass. I imagine they think this helps balance, but it makes the brass sound really late since their sound reaches others' mikes only via the room. Forward-facing brass sound less late, but this setup makes tuba and horns sound really late and somewhat diffuse in comparison.

Call me old fashioned, but I'd take the old "two mikes out front" setup any day.

Of course tubas are late. Very few compensate for the half second it takes to get the horn vibrating. An example of proper if not a bit of overcompensating for this I observed in the CSO brass live CD from the esteemed Mr. Pokorney in Lincolnshire Posy Lord Melbourne. He is always on or even a bit ahead on attacks which is clearly heard.

In another observation, he is a master of what I would call 'playing in your own resonance', where he always seems to not stop, but rather fast fade the air on note endings and then snatch a breath breath, effectively having the note still resonating and sounding like continous sound while breathing for the next entrance. Make the hall work for you.

bloke wrote:I just listened on facebook to a recording of a very fine college band (led by a legendary wind band conductor) playing a Sousa march. There were six tubas. The tubas were behind the beat and were difficult to hear in the recording.

They were probably all aspiring orchestral musicians.

bloke wrote:...simply that it was "on", and not delayed.

Articulation could also play a part in folks' perception that tubas are sometimes late. I hear a whole lot of tubaists use a "bwa-" articulation; something that other brasses would never even consider. Of course, if there's no clear beginning to a note, it's almost impossible to perceive it as being "in time".

Often when we have subs in our section we have to tell them to not play on the beat, i.e. the conductors beat. If they do they will always play before the orchestra. The delay seems to be different in different orchestras and it is very frustrating before that delay is learnt. Unfortunately it seems to differ not only in different orchestras but also with different conductors. However, in a section or preferably whole orchestra that play well together everyone might be aware of this and capable of handling it, but it is a source to trouble.

luke_hollis wrote:Of course tubas are late. Very few compensate for the half second it takes to get the horn vibrating.

Were you speaking literally or figuratively?

If you want to hear a superb example of the tuba being right on top of the beat, listen to the Reiner/CSO recording of Strauss's "Thunder and Lightning" Polka that was on their recording entitled "Vienna."

bloke wrote:When Mei-Ann Chen showed up in Memphis (after decades of that "playing chicken with the conductor" stuff) she immediately put an end to all of that.

Great, that's the way it should be.

Lingon wrote:Often when we have subs in our section we have to tell them to not play on the beat, i.e. the conductors beat. If they do they will always play before the orchestra.

I've found this is absolutely rampant in Europe. 'Tradition' seems to be that brass sections produce attacks as much as a full second behind the conductor's ictus. There's no rhyme or reason to it; just inbred tradition. It makes group entrances unnecessarily dangerous and unpredictable.

/rant

bloke wrote:When Mei-Ann Chen showed up in Memphis (after decades of that "playing chicken with the conductor" stuff) she immediately put an end to all of that.

More of those please!

bloke wrote:When Mei-Ann Chen showed up in Memphis (after decades of that "playing chicken with the conductor" stuff) she immediately put an end to all of that.

Yeah - from what I saw of her (one concert with the ASO), she's a band player's band director.

On the other hand, I play for a couple of band directors who aspire to be orchestra conductors. One likes to dance with the soloist, following along with
her rubato and thoroughly confusing the ensemble.

Spare me, please.

Most amusing of all is one conductor, who has a standard rap making two points:

a) you must anticipate the ictus to stay with me
b) I will be conducting ahead of the beat, so don't worry if you seem to be behind me

and then, in fact, he ends up following the trumpets, wherever their whimsy takes us.

My all-time favorite director (who I only get to play for once a year), knows exactly what she wants, asks for it clearly, and (mostly) gets it. Her conducting pattern is clear, to the point, and predictable - and she INSISTS on being followed precisely. Such a pleasure to play for.

bloke wrote:When Mei-Ann Chen showed up in Memphis (after decades of that "playing chicken with the conductor" stuff) she immediately put an end to all of that.

Yeah - from what I saw of her (one concert with the ASO), she's a band player's band director.

On the other hand, I play for a couple of band directors who aspire to be orchestra conductors. One likes to dance with the soloist, following along with
her rubato and thoroughly confusing the ensemble.

Spare me, please.

Most amusing of all is one conductor, who has a standard rap making two points:

a) you must anticipate the ictus to stay with me
b) I will be conducting ahead of the beat, so don't worry if you seem to be behind me

and then, in fact, he ends up following the trumpets, wherever their whimsy takes us.

My all-time favorite director (who I only get to play for once a year), knows exactly what she wants, asks for it clearly, and (mostly) gets it. Her conducting pattern is clear, to the point, and predictable - and she INSISTS on being followed precisely. Such a pleasure to play for.

bloke wrote:The subject was changed here pretty quickly from "tuba players playing late" to "it's the fault of conductors", wasn't it?

Of course - it's (nearly) always the conductor's fault.

sloan wrote:

bloke wrote:The subject was changed here pretty quickly from "tuba players playing late" to "it's the fault of conductors", wasn't it?

Of course - it's (nearly) always the conductor's fault.

Well, it does happen every now and then that a conductor at some rehearsal leaves the conductor's podium and goes out in the audience area for checking up the balance when the orchestra plays. Almost always the orchestra plays tighter when that happens, then when the conductor returns it might be a bit muddy again. So...

Some of this may also fall back on the earlier discussion about bad stage acoustics but isn't it relatively clear that it almost always is the conductor's fault when just a single musician plays before or after the beat?

Very seldom I have worked with tubists that plays late, in many situations the tuba player is early and the orchestra late, irrespective of the tuba is small or large?!...

I wonder why it is that people mention a "band player´s director".
Whats so "inprofessional" about musicians following the conductor spot-on ?
The performance would clearly turn from the conductor´s into the orchestra´s interpretation otherwise, wouldn´t it ?

(I´m not saying that would be a bad idea at all times)

I always feel more comfortable when I play for a conductor who may point to his baton-hand occasionally to catch players that "get carried away".

luke_hollis wrote:Mr. Pokorney...is a master of what I would call 'playing in your own resonance', where he always seems to not stop, but rather fast fade the air on note endings and then snatch a breath, effectively having the note still resonating and sounding like continous sound while breathing for the next entrance. Make the hall work for you.

I know this was several posts back...but I have heard a recording he did of standard orchestral excerpts where in each track he describes the passage and various info about the what audition panels are frequently looking for, yada, yada... In one of them he talks about that specifically