TubeNet

So How does everyone handle a conductor that has an inconsistant beat pattern?

Follow the concertmaster or principal bass.

One of the conductors that I have to follow has a bad habit of not beating at all when he comes to complicated bit of the score as he works it out for himself.
In those situations I follow the drums as they are usually on top of their parts.

brassbow wrote:So How does everyone handle a conductor that has an inconsistant beat pattern?

Great question!

Become super uber dupper aware and decide to follow lead or get out of the way.

Watch for the milestones (when to start, when to cutoff, fermatas, etc.) and otherwise listen.

I once played in a band where the director had two styles -- in rehearsal, a very plain, direct, easy to follow pattern... and in concert, a very showy, flashy, and hard to follow pattern. The first concert every season was kind of rough, until we learned to ignore the right parts.

That's kind of the problem, huh? No one hears the conductor, so as long as he looks good...

Never be dependent upon a conductor to help you with anything. Just develop upon your own musical instincts and listen.

bloke wrote:

Matt Good wrote:Never be dependent upon a conductor to help you with anything. Just develop upon your own musical instincts and listen.

Matt,
You know one of the trumpet players mentioned above.

I bet I do!

I remember a conductor in one of the Municipal Bands I have played with, who used to frequently yell at the tubas for dragging the tempo on marches.

I got sick of it and leaned up to the principal horn and told him "From now on, we don't watch during marches. We'll look for the first downbeat, but after that, we'll just put our heads down and keep the time."

The conductor's reaction to seeing nothing but the tops of our heads? "Tubas, that was PERFECT. Thanks for finally keeping with me! Do it like that every time!"

In wind band/ensembles/etc

Memorizing the part and drilling a hole in the conductor with your eyes, if the conductor is being inconsistent because he is not well prepared.

Ignoring the conductor, if the conductor is incompetent.

During rehearsal...give the conductor EXACTLY what his stick asks for.

During performance...ignore the conductor, listen, and make it work.

Good advice is in the following fable:

Two old violists shared the same stand at the back of the orchestra for thirty years. On concert night, the conductor was taken extremely ill and could not go on stage. Also, it was the assistant conductor's night off and he could not be found. There was a sell-out crowd in the hall. Baffled as to what to do, the personnel manager went through a file of resumes to see if there was a player that might be able to fill in for the conductor. One of the two old violists had done some conducting in the past and was asked to conduct the concert. He conducted extremely well, received a standing ovation and had to conduct two encores. The following morning, the newspapers raved about the performance. The following evening, the principal conductor was sufficiently recuperated to conduct the performance and the old violist took his seat at the back of the section. His stand partner looked over at him and said, "Where were you last night?"

I just did too. =P

hbcrandy wrote:Good advice is in the following fable:

Two old violists shared the same stand at the back of the orchestra for thirty years. On concert night, the conductor was taken extremely ill and could not go on stage. Also, it was the assistant conductor's night off and he could not be found. There was a sell-out crowd in the hall. Baffled as to what to do, the personnel manager went through a file of resumes to see if there was a player that might be able to fill in for the conductor. One of the two old violists had done some conducting in the past and was asked to conduct the concert. He conducted extremely well, received a standing ovation and had to conduct two encores. The following morning, the newspapers raved about the performance. The following evening, the principal conductor was sufficiently recuperated to conduct the performance and the old violist took his seat at the back of the section. His stand partner looked over at him and said, "Where were you last night?"

Very very good joke, because it's all too true!

In my experience which is not vast, but it's not too limited either, I've seen a few competent band directors; the band plays on the down of the beat, and with a good preparatory upbeat the band would always be able to play together on the first note and would be able to follow a the conductor who was good at this style of directing through the most complicated of band arrangements. These type of band directors who are competent probably make up 20% of all band directors in my estimation, the rest are un-followable.

A lot of band directors fall into the "my arms are so friggin tired" category, and are always always slowing down the beat and then complain to the band that the band is slowing down. Classic.

On the other hand, I've never understood the orchestral style of playing on the conductor's "upbeat". It seems there is no preparatory beat there's a lot of willy-nilly theatrics happening up on the "box". I've played in only a few orchestras, regional type things and large municipal and college and some commercial type gigs and I've only saw 1 yes 1 (maybe 2 or 3) orchestral conductor in my direct experience whom was actually followed by the orchestra. Percentage wise, imo 5% tops orchestral conductors are actually leading the ensemble.

A lot of orchestral conductors fall under the category, "this is art" wave the baton whimsically and wonder why the orchestra isn't "relating" to the expressions they are "trying" to convey. Classic.

Ooops forgot about the OP.

Yeah, for the most part follow the concertmaster, the first trombone or trumpet, or maybe the bass section leader, whoever is most important at the time. You actually have to watch these people imo or you will come in late, very late! Also, once a section begins you must listen carefully!

I really hope some more professional toobists chime in on this.

b.williams wrote:

brassbow wrote:So How does everyone handle a conductor that has an inconsistant beat pattern?

Great question!

Become super uber dupper aware and decide to follow lead or get out of the way.

I think this is the most accurate statement for a wide array of different ensembles. Follow, lead, or get out of the way. If you are new to a group, leading is probably not a great idea.

STOP WATCHING!!!

tclements wrote:STOP WATCHING!!!

Now, now, Tony------------I'd venture that you always watched this conductor. You worked for him for quite a number of years. I did Trumpet II in Berkeley Opera's Magic Flute with George as the conductor. He is a fine musician and great conductor whose baton had better be watched lest he roast you alive. Fear of his wrath keeps musicians on their toes.

http://www.symphonysiliconvalley.org/mu ... 6&MusID=86" target="_blank

Ace

JCalkin wrote:I remember a conductor in one of the Municipal Bands I have played with, who used to frequently yell at the tubas for dragging the tempo on marches.

I got sick of it and leaned up to the principal horn and told him "From now on, we don't watch during marches. We'll look for the first downbeat, but after that, we'll just put our heads down and keep the time."

The conductor's reaction to seeing nothing but the tops of our heads? "Tubas, that was PERFECT. Thanks for finally keeping with me! Do it like that every time!"

Once upon a time, the "Resident Genius" and I had a VERY similar experience. This came about after we had studiously followed his beat, all the time.

As I'm currently in grad school studying conducting I find this thread very interesting, informative, and educational. I hope that I don't become one of "those" conductors but am rather one that you would be willing to watch. Please keep this thread going as I still have a lot to learn.

Some decades ago when I was second horn in an undistinguished British brass band, one of our members was a student at the Guildhall school of music (strings for a living, brass band and beer as a hobby). He was advised by one of his profs not to conduct our band, because he was getting into the habit of giving too much explicit help and direction; This would be deeply resented by pro musicians, which could be a CLM (this was probably good advice: when last heard from, he had the first cello seat in quite a decent orchestra).

Later, West of the Atlantic, during a weekend camp for community bands, the conductor tore a flamboyant and richly ornamented strip off of a tuba for mis-timing an entry. He had forgotten where he was, and was enraged that he couldn't extract a professional level of performance from a bungling incompetent; Actually I was flattered that he confused me with someone who would be embarassed by a mistake like that, but unfortunately that was/is about my usual level.

I guess the pattern I may be seeing is that when a capable conductor is unclear, he may be paying you the complement of assuming that you don't need his help, possibly because he's forgotten what it felt like to need that kind of help. The other kind of conductor we just live with.

Also: some replies in this thread suggest relying on the drummer or the principal tuba. I used to follow this advice and stay with the drummer, until one day he confessed that he always knew he could trust the tuba (me). I guess the moral is that you should listen to what's going on around you and stay with the majority of the ensemble (except community-band trumpets of course - higher,louder,faster, and ALWAYS half a beat ahead)