24AW - in praise of

The bulk of the musical talk
User avatar
PhilGreen
bugler
bugler
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: West Midlands, UK

24AW - in praise of

Post by PhilGreen »

In a thread in the For Sale section

bloke wrote:
Don't tell the UK members that 24AW mouthpieces are "good for students".



I saw this and it made me laugh (Bloke and I had an off-air conversation about UK peculiarities earlier) as the 24AW was listed as a Student Model or similar. It made me think - either UK brass band tuba players would be Soooooo much better if they changed mouthpieces or else someone somewhere is missing a trick on marketing in the US for this mouthpiece?
I suppose that if, like me, you were rehearsing full pelt for 4 -6 hours a week in band, an hour a day on your days off, performing in 40-50 concerts per year, producing 2-3 commercial CDs per year, 5 or 6 high profile contests you'd make a decent noise on any mouthpiece.

In the UK we don't let players get to 24AW until they have the lip to manage it as it needs so much control but makes such a great noise when mastered.

Why is it seen as a beginners mouthpiece in the US?
Phil Green.
User avatar
ShoelessWes
bugler
bugler
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:24 pm
Contact:

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by ShoelessWes »

PhilGreen wrote: Why is it seen as a beginners mouthpiece in the US?
Because it isn't the "hot! NEW!" thing, it costs less than $100USD, it is made of traditional materials, and because "my favorite tuba player....so and so" doesn't play it.

Pretty much like most things here in the States. Sometimes we reinvent things and get so caught up in new things, we lose track of the old things that worked just as well or better. I.E. tuba gear, shaving, beer, clothing, technology...
Shoeless Wesley Pendergrass

Visual Designer/Consultant/Instructor
Freelance Musician


http://www.shoelessmusic.com
User avatar
cjk
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1915
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:16 pm

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by cjk »

The inner diameter is too small.
The rim is too wide.
The throat is too large.

Seems like it might work OK on those "resistance filled" compensating E flat tubas.
User avatar
PhilGreen
bugler
bugler
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: West Midlands, UK

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by PhilGreen »

cjk wrote:The inner diameter is too small.
The rim is too wide.
The throat is too large.

Seems like it might work OK on those "resistance filled" compensating E flat tubas.
Surely that depends though.

A not-too-wide inner diameter seems to me to be ideal for playing stuff that isn't ledger lines below the stave, as most "band" music is. Playing above the stave for prolonged periods on a bucket or similar is tiring to say the least.
Many tuba parts in orchestras seem to come after many bars rest (or movement rests). In quintet, 10 piece and band (brass) the mouthpiece is never off your face so a good, wide rim is most comfortable and allows you to play the novelty tuba solo, with cadenzas up high Z's as the penultimate piece in a 2 hours concert with some degree of a lip left.
A large throat allows me to get as much air as possible through the instrument. Isn't that the point of playing a tuba - air flow?

Perhaps I just don't understand the physics?

As for the comment regarding compensating tubas - yes 99.9% of UK brass band tubas are compensating. Mine however is not. I'm currently trying out some replacements for my 24AW as I wanted to see if I could improve my playing through the simple process of a new gob-iron.
I have a TU21 - great for the high stuff but makes me sound quite thin sounding in the low register.
I have a PT84 - super tuba sound but quite an edgy sound for me in the medium to low register and tiring up high.

When Bloke and I talked off air I mentioned that the group I played with were doing the Bach Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor. I thought the PT84 would be the mouthpiece I should use but very quickly swapped back to the 24AW due to the mellowness that was required, rather than edge, in the lower register. I've given each a really good go, doing all manner of rehearsals and concerts on each; perhaps you just can't this old dog a new trick?

I'm not dissing (you see, I can talk US styley too) those that think the 24AW makes a better door stop than mouthpiece but I fail to see why all the positives I've listed are so negatively received by many people who's opinion I have no reason to doubt is informed.
Phil Green.
tofu
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1995
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: One toke over the line...

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by tofu »

bloke wrote:The 24AW squanders air and potential, and severely restricts movement.

The tubist with the top orchestra in the UK is a *FINE* player, but in one of his videos (playing excerpts) I can hear the "24AW" in his sound. He works around it very well, but I just don't see the point.

I'm not-at-all fond of any the Wick tuba mouthpieces, but all of them are superior to the 24AW in just about every respect. They're English. Why not use those ?
Hey Joe I see you are offering the Imperial with a small English shank. How about the Symphony? I've got a Euro Symphony for one of my horns and think the Symphony might also be a good replacement for the Wick I'm using on my BBb Besson New Standard brass band horn which takes the old small shank. I prefer not to change the receiver so need the smaller shank.
User avatar
PhilGreen
bugler
bugler
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: West Midlands, UK

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by PhilGreen »

bloke wrote:
I'm not-at-all fond of any the Wick tuba mouthpieces, but all of them are superior to the 24AW in just about every respect. They're English. Why not use those ?
Bloke, unlike many people, quite a few on this board in fact, I don't (always) purchase goods based (purely) on their country of manufacture :lol:
Phil Green.
ginnboonmiller
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:47 pm

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by ginnboonmiller »

We drive on the right side of the road and call them "slices of bacon," too. It's a crazy, mixed-up world.
User avatar
PhilGreen
bugler
bugler
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: West Midlands, UK

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by PhilGreen »

tofu wrote:
Hey Joe I see you are offering the Imperial with a small English shank.
Most, if not all, UK tubas require a large shank fitting. My MW2040/5 certainly does.
Phil Green.
User avatar
tubaguy9
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 943
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:07 pm
Location: I pitty da foo!
Contact:

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by tubaguy9 »

For me, I believe it was the first type of mouthpiece I had...
I started a bad habit on it too...it was something like "anchoring" the bottom lip to the bottom rim of the mouthpiece.
Maybe it's why I still have issues with reaching pedals?
I think I might end up as a grumpy old man when I get old...
User avatar
imperialbari
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 7461
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:47 am

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by imperialbari »

Even if I have my ideas about the meaning of false resistance, I still would like you to elaborate on that sub-topic.

My own criteria sort of come down to whether a mouthpiece is alive/responsive or not. If I feel it is alive as is, I trust I can modify the backbore to get the warmth of sound I want (doesn’t go for steel mouthpieces).

Overly shallow or narrow mouthpieces are not alive in my book, as they do not give room for a full specter of overtones.

Klaus
User avatar
PhilGreen
bugler
bugler
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: West Midlands, UK

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by PhilGreen »

Thanks for the feedback so far - although I have to say that it's less than illuminating.

What I've learnt from the board is

The inner diameter is too small.
The rim is too wide.
The throat is too large.

It squanders air and potential, and severely restricts movement.

It possibly creates /features "false resistance"

Surely the first 3 are subjective? I gave a my opinion on these points as a player but still don't understand the negativity - too small, wide and large for what....tuning, tone, flexibility, range, power, dynamics????

The fourth point about squandering potential and air is interesting to say the least but how has this been measured / proven? What is the effect on the player?

Like imperialbari I'm keen to understand more about the false resistance mentioned in the fifth point - what is it and why does it happen in this mouthpiece?

I'm keen to improve as a player if possible given the limited time I now have to practice and if my mp is holding me back somehow, particularly after investing a lot of £s in a new non-compensating rotary valve tuba, I'd like to understand why, not just be told that it is.

Looking forward to some more interesting debate.
Phil Green.
User avatar
PaulTkachenko
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:34 pm
Contact:

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by PaulTkachenko »

24AW seems to work well on my King sousa.

I'm back to the factory mouthpieces on all my other (yamaha - 631, 621F, 661) tubas. I'd be interested to know what else works, but it if it isn't broken I'm not going to be too quick to fix it.

I certainly prefer the 24AW to all the Wicks (the older ones) that I've tried.

Curious.
Yamahas YFB621, YBB621 & YEB 631
Conn 20K, Bubbie, Tornister & Amati Bb helicon
Perinet ophicleide, Kaiser serpent, YEP 321 Euphonium, King 3B bone, YBL612II bass bone, Meinl flugabone
Double bass, bass guitar, bass sax
User avatar
PaulTkachenko
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:34 pm
Contact:

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by PaulTkachenko »

OK, I'm interested.

I really like my 24AW on the sousa and I'm very happy with it.

However, the passion with which you slate this mouthpiece means that I am listening ...

Which mouthpiece would you recommend I try that would improve things for me (but, like I said, 24AW seems to do everything well for me ...)?
Yamahas YFB621, YBB621 & YEB 631
Conn 20K, Bubbie, Tornister & Amati Bb helicon
Perinet ophicleide, Kaiser serpent, YEP 321 Euphonium, King 3B bone, YBL612II bass bone, Meinl flugabone
Double bass, bass guitar, bass sax
User avatar
PhilGreen
bugler
bugler
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: West Midlands, UK

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by PhilGreen »

bloke wrote:
Debate" never resolves anything in the real world; How about something more substantial than "debate"...something actually three dimensional...?? :D

bloke "I don't know how much postage costs FROM the UK, but postage TO the UK costs $12 USD. This one time I'll pay the first leg, if you would like to A-B a 24AW with something else. [possibly presumptuous, but...] Most any reasonably well-designed mouthpiece, though, might require a learning curve."

_________________________________________________
*The term, "false resistance", referred to a completely different mouthpiece -
a mouthpiece with a small cylindrical backbore approximately the diameter of a pencil,
and whose maker states that if good results are not being achieved, this is the fault of the player.
Those who have tried and rejected them know to which ones I refer.
That's a very nice offer and one I'd be happy to accept. I'll PM you with some details.
Phil Green.
User avatar
cjk
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1915
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:16 pm

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by cjk »

I find trying to play a 24AW like trying to go jogging in a pair of clown shoes that are one size too small for my feet.

The dimensions are just so extreme, just so far away from what I would consider normal, that the results are fairly comical.
jeopardymaster
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 982
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:22 pm
Location: Ft Thomas, KY

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by jeopardymaster »

I rather like it myself. But then, I could never get comfortable with a Conn Helleberg, however much I tried.
Gnagey CC, VMI Neptune 4098 CC, Mirafone 184-5U CC and 56 Bb, Besson 983 EEb and euphonium, King marching baritone, Alexander 163 BBb, Conn 71H/112H bass trombone, Olds Recording tenor trombone.
User avatar
Donn
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 5977
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:58 pm
Location: Seattle, ☯

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by Donn »

If nothing else, here we can see the futility of mouthpiece advice. Of the kind usually found here - as in `Hello, my name is Fred, I play tuba and need a better mouthpiece' -> `Hello Fred! I use a ____ mouthpiece and it's great!'
User avatar
PaulTkachenko
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:34 pm
Contact:

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by PaulTkachenko »

How can I be so happy with it, then? I've got loads of mouthpieces knocking around at home ...

Totally up for trying another one though ...
Yamahas YFB621, YBB621 & YEB 631
Conn 20K, Bubbie, Tornister & Amati Bb helicon
Perinet ophicleide, Kaiser serpent, YEP 321 Euphonium, King 3B bone, YBL612II bass bone, Meinl flugabone
Double bass, bass guitar, bass sax
User avatar
imperialbari
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 7461
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:47 am

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by imperialbari »

Meta-message to this thread:

A private message ended up in my in-box. Only it was obviously not intended for me. As it obviously would be obsolete by now, I have deleted it with no further action beyond this posting.

Anyway it is my suggestion NOT to use personal messages whenever the email option is available. The TN-inbox has a limited capacity which calls for action not to run full. At least with my set-up emails are handled much more easily.

Klaus
User avatar
PhilGreen
bugler
bugler
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: West Midlands, UK

Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by PhilGreen »

bloke wrote:The inner diameter is too small - for most players (except for those with very front-pointed facial structures) to truly realize their own sonic potential

The rim is too wide - for most players to truly realize their potential regarding flexibility, particularly when legato and/or quick jumps between ranges are required

The throat is too large - needlessly wasting air needed for long phrases, and requiring needless extra work when achieving a majestic sound in the low range
Lucky for me then that most of my work calls for staccato playing, in or around the same octave with a pretty mediocre sound. And not saying I'm goofy but I've been known to eat an apple through a tennis racket. Now I know why I love my 24AW so much!!!
:D

Bloke has very kindly offered to send me one of his custom mouthpieces; he's aware of my playing requirements (and facial anomalies) so I'm really looking forward to comparing my sound (after all, that's what its all about isn't it?) on it during the trial period. If anyone is interested I'll update the board periodically with progress and thoughts.

Just getting my arguments in line for my next thread - Why don't you all use proper, compensating tubas......? :mrgreen:
Phil Green.
Post Reply