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I'm not certain this is the right place for this question but here goes:
A friend of mine who is a composer and a retired music educator in Ontario, Canada (the Toronto area) said a former student of his, a promising tuba player, had applied to a college. (Univ. of Western Ontario, I think) During the audition using a BBb tuba from her high school she was told that she needed to come with an F-Tuba. She currently does not own any tuba. This sounded odd to me. Is this standard operating procedure in Canadian schools of music or is there some other reason of which I'm unaware?

Thanks for any and all info.
Pete

(post deleted)

In my experience that is far from the standard in most Canadian schools. Having a BBb for the audition is usually fine, I have even met people who didn't own a tuba before they were well within their degree.

FWIW, UWO would not be my first pick as a school if I wanted to study "Tuba" (or Euphonium).

That's pretty much what my friend told her about UWO and was encouraging her and her parents to take a look at Univ. of Toronto and was also going to ask the tuba player from the Toronto Symphony if there was a possibility of taking her on as a student during the summer. To be clear she was permitted to take the audition on the BBb but was told about bringing an F to school if and when she was accepted. He was only asking me if this "requirement"(the F tuba thing) was something new because it didn't sound right to him.
Pete

As far as I know of Canadain universities, none "require " you to own a tuba. And it would be silly for them to say you must own an F tuba and nothing else. I don't want to get into the key of instrument talk but I would email the school directly before making any sizable purchase. And if you are concerned about what horn to play a the school, if they accept you(her) email or call the tuba instructor.

cctubaneeds wrote:As far as I know of Canadain universities, none "require " you to own a tuba. And it would be silly for them to say you must own an F tuba and nothing else. I don't want to get into the key of instrument talk but I would email the school directly before making any sizable purchase. And if you are concerned about what horn to play a the school, if they accept you(her) email or call the tuba instructor.

I didn't know either before I read it....

4. The candidate must own, or be prepared to purchase, an instrument of professional quality. It is recommended that students contact their future teachers before purchasing an instrument.

http://www.music.uwo.ca/students/brass.html" target="_blank

I don't remember being told by any of my teachers that I needed to go buy an f tuba, although I'm glad I did.

If a student has the bread to buy one and the talent to put it to use, then by all means, knock yourself out.

I'd venture to guess that of the tubas that I have owned, my f paid for itself more times over than the rest of the litter. They take a bit of work to get the handle of it, but after time, I became more comfortable in reading situations at gigs on the f than on any CC.

Just my .02. If you don't think it's necessary to have one, then don't play one. If it's something you want to have in your arsenal, then don't wait for permission. Probably not something to go into hock over, but you can find a decent used model for about $3000 it seems.

My suspicion is the requirement was misunderstood. I don't know of any programs in North America that require F-tuba purchase upon entry, or before acquiring a decent contrabass.

The choice should be dictated by the entering-freshmen portion of the repertoire and the performance practice of the orchestras and other professional ensembles in Canada, not by which instrument might make more money. Much of the advanced solo repertoire was written for bass tuba, but much of the orchestral and band literature, as it is performed in Canada and the U.S., will be played using a contrabass tuba. The solo repertoire for entering freshmen is unlikely to require an F tuba, it seems to me.

So, would the professor rather hear the first movement of the Vaughan Williams on a contrabass, or the major orchestral excerpts on an F tuba? I think I know where I would fall in that trade-off.

Rick "wondering if 'you'll need an F tuba as well, eventually' was heard as 'you'll need an F tuba on arrival'" Denney

I met a student last year, who had a CC and an Eb, and was shopping F's because he "needed" one as a freshman in college. I have read some version of the same thing quite a few times in this forum. I don't understand how this came to be, but it must make a robust market for F tubas. I have one near Chicago if anybody "needs" one.

I have thought several times that I "needed" a certain tuba or bass guitar. When I took some time and honestly evaluated the meaning of the word "need", it became clear that I just really "wanted" or "desired" the instrument. Some of the instruments I bought anyway and some I didn't. A music addiction can be difficult to navigate

I agree with the above posts. Just to clarify my own post, the student was getting instruction from famous players, and admitted to a fabulous school. He had marching orders to show up with an F tuba, and it needed to be the finest F tuba. The parent was less than thrilled.

More clarification: last night I saw a student from the fabulous school (Eastman) and he debunked the other person's marching orders. It turns out that the students there are playing what you would expect, C tubas, even the student who played the RVW with the band.

It's common practice for applied music instructors at institutions of higher learning to include equipment stipulations in the course catalog and syllabus. The reason for this is 1) to make it easier for the student to apply for an additional student loan to cover the cost of 'course materials' and 2) to help the parents of students understand that they should not expect the institution to provide an instrument(particularly true of tuba parents).

I suspect there was a miscommunication regarding the timing of the tuba purchase for the student BUT... maybe not.

If this is a student that has been 'studying with famous players' for a few years now and accepted to a 'fabulous school'... perhaps she is the next Carol Jantch. I suspect the reactions of the TNFJ would be completely different.

Either way, the parents need to discuss this with the potential professor.

Teachers' requirements seem to depend largely on their own experiences.

I observed a master class with Alexander von Puttkamer (Berlin Philharmonic), and all of the performers he coached played CC as their big horn. While he could speak easily about the music, phrasing, etc., he mentioned MANY times that he did not feel qualified or able to give much help with the horn itself. Being a rotary BBb player, he couldn't tell what notes are bad/troublesome, problems b/c of valve types, etc. When coaching on F tuba pieces, he seemed far more comfortable. And for pieces where the student played it on a CC (and Alexander preferred it to be played on an F), his recurring (somewhat tongue-in-cheek) advice was "can you make it sound more like an F tuba?"

Being a German and rooted deeply in the BBb/F tradition, I think this is an extreme case, but I think the general idea still applies. That's why it's so important to find a teacher whose style matches your own. Does it really make sense to NOT have an F tuba if your teacher is really big on F tubas? Would it make sense to study closely with a monster BBb player if you want to play CC?

Naaaaah. She needs to spend $36,000 on a Yamayork, or she'll NEVER make it!!!!

<sorry, I am feeling a bit feisty today>

I have a 4460 that I really like, but I end up playing the small Yamaha most often. Go figure....

I totally agree with Monseur L'elephant! When I have SERIOUS students (not non-majors who are just coming for lessons) I strongly suggest they get a largish 5-valve CC. This (I believe) will be better for their development and be most useful in most playing situations. When they are ready, I urge them to get a bass tuba. If it is a non-comp horn, I insist they get a 5 valve. Most often I have them get an F tuba, but I have one former student who is very successful and I believe his bass tuba in an Eb.

Consider my 2 cents' worth in the pot....

When I was a music student, my personal views led my teacher to add "must play contrabass and bass" to his curriculum. Two/three weeks after til the end of the semester, I played my Eb only.

Hi-
For a F tuba these days, you must play a Gemeinhardt F-- nothing else comes close..... my 2 cents.....

Mark

the elephant wrote: And I NEVER encourage a student to pursue performance - ever. That is a very personal and risky decision. I will offer my advice and experience. I will talk to parents. I will offer specific help locating high quality horns (and will even test them for the student for a few days, if that is requested of me). I will bend over backwards to help such students.

But I actively steer students away from padding someone's applied teaching schedule just because they get the notion that they want to play for a living.

I honestly believe that most teachers should feel mortally compelled to do so unless junior is a freaking musical genius who *honestly* has a shot at such a career..

well said.
I wish more teachers had the integrity to do the same instead of cranking out huge studios of BM MM DMA students who have no marketable skills and little real-world chance of performing for the bulk of their income.

MartyNeilan wrote:

the elephant wrote: And I NEVER encourage a student to pursue performance - ever. That is a very personal and risky decision. I will offer my advice and experience. I will talk to parents. I will offer specific help locating high quality horns (and will even test them for the student for a few days, if that is requested of me). I will bend over backwards to help such students.

But I actively steer students away from padding someone's applied teaching schedule just because they get the notion that they want to play for a living.

I honestly believe that most teachers should feel mortally compelled to do so unless junior is a freaking musical genius who *honestly* has a shot at such a career..

well said.
I wish more teachers had the integrity to do the same instead of cranking out huge studios of BM MM DMA students who have no marketable skills and little real-world chance of performing for the bulk of their income.

This opens up another debate that is not really related to the OP, but is the only point of a degree to get marketable skills. Sidebar.... A friend of mine, started teaching in the early 90's (with his music ed degree) and after two years of teaching, there was a province wide cutback and music was pretty much cut across the board. He lost his job, what marketable skills did he have at that point? He ended doing a computer science certificate and working IT support for 15 years, before going back to get a Master's in Conducting.

To me, what was essential in my decision to pursue performance was how much debt I would graduate with. Somebody who has a degree in performance without any student loans is in as good shape as somebody with a music ed degree and $30,000 debt (At least for the first ten years when the Music teacher is paying back his debt)....