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looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:55 pm
by yemag
Hi All,

I've started playing the tuba again after a 25yr hiatus. I bought a beat-up Conn 10J to start playing again. It went well and I'd like to upgrade to a moderately priced 4 valve tuba since the Conn seems to play sharp in the lower registers. Does anyone have any suggestions? Maybe a Cerveny or a Chinese tuba? Used and dented is OK. Thanks,

-Yemag

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 1:33 pm
by tclements
WARNING, HIGHLY OPINIONATE MATERIAL AHEAD!

The best all around BBb tuba you can put your hands on is the Mirafone 186-4U. If you want something with a bigger sound, a 191.

Good luck!

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 3:59 pm
by Levaix
Any idea on your price range? That'll change a lot of answers.

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 4:10 pm
by yemag
My price range is $2K to $4K. More like $2K.

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 5:20 pm
by yemag
Cool. Can you suggest a distributor? I heard that buying direct from China is risky.

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 7:09 pm
by toobagrowl
In addition to the Miraphone 186 BBb, you have the VMI 103 BBb and Meinl-Weston 25 BBb tubas. You really can't go wrong with these as they are solidly built tubas that play well with good pitch, response and sound. I like the VMI and M-W better sound-wise than the Miraphone, but they are all very good and are in more-or-less the same 'class'.
These tubas run roughly in the $2,500 - $3,500 range, used.

If you like pistons, the King 2341 BBb is a great choice. Usually $3,000 - $5,000 used.

The St. Pete BBb and Cerveny 681 BBb are decent tubas for a bit cheaper, but not quite as well-made and consistent as the above models. Usually around $2,000 - $3,000 used.

All tubas listed above are 4/4 size, 4-valve BBb tubas.

I don't really have any experience with the Chinese tubas so I will let the others comment on them.

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 9:24 pm
by Tubajug
Dillon Music has a Conn 5J (4-valve version of the 10J essentially) and a King 2341 with both an upright and a recording bell. Both tubas are between $2,000-3,000.

http://www.dillonmusic.com/c-1013-tubas.aspx" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Dan Schultz also has a King 1241 with a recording bell for $1850 on his website.

http://thevillagetinker.com/horns_for_sale.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 1:02 am
by yemag
Thanks guys!

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 2:55 am
by Bob Kolada
I like those VMI's, dislike 186's and 25's, and prefer the King as an overall Bb. Best "4/4 Bb" out there.

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 9:02 am
by bisontuba
yemag wrote:Cool. Can you suggest a distributor? I heard that buying direct from China is risky.
Hi-
Check out MACK Brass -- a sponsor of Tubenet--- http://www.mackbrass.com" target="_blank

Mark

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 10:26 am
by Dan Schultz
I'm not an advocate of buying new horns... unless you are convinced that this will be the very last tuba you purchase. There's just too darned much depreciation. Someone mentioned in another thread that a tuba cannot be considered as an investment in terms of gaining value. I think I would have to dispute that statement. Of course... I'm greatly biased because my forte is making old horns playable again.

The newest tuba I own is a Miraphone 1291 5V. It's about eight years old and came to me in great shape despite a few repairs. Granted... one of these even used is still probably out of your budget. However... I think I can be pretty much assured that if I decide to sell mine a few years from now, I won't take much of a loss on it.

If I was seeking a tuba for all-around playing I would zero in on a good used King 1241 or 2341. Don't discount the earlier horns with a detachable bell. I think they are better that the new style Kings. Next in line would be a Miraphone 186, Meinl 20, or Meinl 25. The Meinl 20 and 25 are the same horn except the 25 has a slightly larger bottom bow and bell. The valve section parts are the same. With any of the horns I've mentioned... you can rest assured that any severe damage can probably be repaired without breaking the bank.

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 12:20 pm
by Tubaman2365
yemag wrote:Cool. Can you suggest a distributor? I heard that buying direct from China is risky.
Where are you located? I would suggest going someplace you can play test the horns.

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 5:31 pm
by yemag
I live in San Francisco

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 8:34 pm
by Levaix
Keep an eye out for used B&S stencils... I like mine more than a 186, and it was under $1500. Very versatile BBb, especially if you like German horns. Names on the bell may include Sonora, Karl Zeiss, and a couple others I'm forgetting.

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 9:23 pm
by Dan Schultz
Levaix wrote:Keep an eye out for used B&S stencils... I like mine more than a 186, and it was under $1500. Very versatile BBb, especially if you like German horns. Names on the bell may include Sonora, Karl Zeiss, and a couple others I'm forgetting.
+1. I forgot about those horns. In fact... I have a B & S/VMI 101 stencil in the shop right now waiting on some minor dent removal. I'm sure the seller will put it up for sale as soon as I have it ready.

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 9:45 pm
by TheHatTuba
TubaTinker wrote:
Levaix wrote:Keep an eye out for used B&S stencils... I like mine more than a 186, and it was under $1500. Very versatile BBb, especially if you like German horns. Names on the bell may include Sonora, Karl Zeiss, and a couple others I'm forgetting.
+1. I forgot about those horns. In fact... I have a B & S/VMI 101 stencil in the shop right now waiting on some minor dent removal. I'm sure the seller will put it up for sale as soon as I have it ready.
another +1, I had a chance to compare my old Sonora/B&S CC to a Mirafone 186 4U CC. Similar intonation, and a slightly broader/darker sound than the mira at a fraction of the cost.

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:57 am
by Levaix
TubaTinker wrote:
Levaix wrote:Keep an eye out for used B&S stencils... I like mine more than a 186, and it was under $1500. Very versatile BBb, especially if you like German horns. Names on the bell may include Sonora, Karl Zeiss, and a couple others I'm forgetting.
+1. I forgot about those horns. In fact... I have a B & S/VMI 101 stencil in the shop right now waiting on some minor dent removal. I'm sure the seller will put it up for sale as soon as I have it ready.
Haha, that's fortuitous! When I wrote that post I had actually checked your website to see if you had any listed for sale. :lol:

OP should seriously consider this horn, as I'm assuming the price will be reasonable. Never regretted buying mine.

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 4:28 pm
by toobagrowl
Levaix wrote:Keep an eye out for used B&S stencils... I like mine more than a 186, and it was under $1500. Very versatile BBb, especially if you like German horns. Names on the bell may include Sonora, Karl Zeiss, and a couple others I'm forgetting.
Add 'Musica', 'Gerhard Schneider', 'Carl Wunderlich' and even 'Giardinelli' to the stencils made by B&S/VMI. :shock:
Dillon's has a VMI Giardinelli BBb tuba for under $2,000:
http://www.dillonmusic.com/p-17148-giar ... mi101.aspx" target="_blank

I didn't mention the stencils because they are harder to find, and a couple of them - 'Karl Zeiss' and 'Musica' are made by both B&S and Cerveny, so you really have to know which ones to look for.
The B&S 'Musica' BBb and CC tubas that I have tooted on were really fine tubas. :tuba:

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:22 am
by joh_tuba
bloke wrote:For $2000, you can

- buy a Chinese copy of a Hirsbrunner 192
- pay for the shipping
- buy a really nice bag (or an MTS case, etc.) for it.
(They come with a styrofoam-board-cordura nylon-zipper closure case, which is semi-disposable.)

These tubas are very accessible, and offer very good intonation. Although the metal used in the linkage is a bit soft (about as soft as the metal used in Yamaha linkage), this is a well-built tuba.

Try it with my "Symphony" mouthpiece. :wink:
A student of mine just purchased an original HBS192 for seven grand.

The horn is 35 years old and in spectacular condition and the valves are lighting fast and with tight solid linkage. It's in as good condition mechanically and cosmetically as when new.

I've examined the construction and engineering in many many China produced tubas.. even ones produced within the last year. While they've certainly improved they are still cutting important corners in ways that make them a poor use of your hard earned money unless you 100% don't care about keeping the tuba long term. NO current crop chinese horn will look as good as this HB in 35 years and more to the point.. this HB will still look and play like it does now in another 35 years.

Moral of the story, when it comes to puchasing a horn that you intend to keep for life, cry once.

Re: looking to upgrade - need advice

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:42 am
by Three Valves
"I suppose if I live to be 200 I win a velocipede!!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41SFTn9xHus" target="_blank