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May 2012 marked 18 years I have worked at Dillon Music playing a lot of tubas and Euphoniums plus meeting a lot of tuba and Euphonium players. I bet there are very few people that have played as many different makes and models of tubas as I have over the years. So here are a few things about selecting horns that I have noticed over the years that explains why some “Consumer Reports” type review of a horn from someone I don’t know and haven’t hung out and listened to, has no meaning to me.
• Really great players tend to pick out the same horn as the best player in a batch of a particular model.
• The best one from that batch is usually sold last because the really good players already have their horn and the aspiring players that are in the market to buy, seem to focus on a particular aspect (loud, open blowing, high register, etc.) instead of a balanced horn.
• Really great players tend to notice the same horns as a good playing horn even if they don’t like rotor, pistons, tall, or compact, etc. “That’s a great horn. I just prefer (whatever) instead.”
• Regardless of how badly they play, too many think they are the norm or slightly better than average. (Don’t bother with a cheap shot here. I know I have a few screws loose and there is someone else better at everything I do.) Therefore most people think that if a horn plays best for them then it should be good enough for most everyone else. Should we all buy the exact size shoes as Michael Jordon to play basketball?
• The really bad players sound like crap on every horn, but if they sound even worse on one horn, they think it must be a bad horn that nobody will like. One day I had a HACK with the tone quality of a flatulent hippo ask me, “Don’t you have any nice sounding tubas in this store?” I bit my lip to keep from saying, “Not when you play them!" and "We asked the manufacturers to only send us crap.” Instead I asked, “Are you in the market to buy a nice tuba?” He said, “No, I just wanted to play what you have.” My reply was something like, “It sounds like we just don’t have a tuba in stock that is fitting for a player of your caliber. Is there anything else I can show you before I get back to my repair work?”
The only evaluations that have meaning to me is by someone I have heard play in person, hung out with, and played the same horn(s) after they commented on what they liked and didn’t like. If we can’t meet in person I will ask a lot of equipment questions to get a sense of how and what works for them and to develop a common language.
The two best horns I have ever played are: 1) The custom York CC I built for myself and 2) my 3 valve top action King BBb (circa 1916) that just had a valve job and I put back together. They fit in my lap. They have the response that matches how I play. They are very in-tune with how I play. The answer to the best tuba is:
THE BEST TUBA IS THE ONE THAT WORKS FOR YOU AND THAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO OWN.

Well said, and I admire your ability to suffer fool customers. They may buy anyway.....

Dennis

I wish I had understood that 15 years ago when I spent 20,000 I didn't have on tubas, then sold them then bought new ones, then sold them then bought new ones, then sold them. Now I play a horn that belongs to a friend because I wasted all my money on the most expensive tubas available that I eventually had to sell to pay for food and a car. Thanks to people like Matt Walters and Don Harry and many others, I have finally learned something. Hard-headed students can learn if they are told the same things over and over again in different ways.

Can you put that in a pamphlet that we can send to every High School in the country?

bloke wrote:There's really nothing we can do to help 17-year-olds who post on here asking whether they should buy a Nirschl York model, a Hirsbrunner York model, a M-W York model, or a Yamaha York model.

A college professor friend of mine who talks to students who ask such questions and don't listen to the advice they receive is to take a hammer out of his drawer, crash it down loudly on the desk right in front of the student, and yell, "No!"

It does get their attention.

That would not work for Matt. Even idiots sometimes actually do buy tubas (and that's something I know about).

Question for Matt: Do you find, as a very decent amateur performer, that you are able to distinguish the qualities noticed by the great players? I know you can distinguish them when they are playing them (so can I), and you have probably built a model of what they like that you can detect while you are doing work on them. But I wonder just how subtle are the factors that make a tuba great, from the perspective of the player.

A great player will get better results on any tuba than I will, of course, but the pros who've played my tubas seem to like or not like them for predictable reasons.

Rick "who aspires to deserve his tubas" Denney

Matt,

Very well said!! Now can we talk fishing rods and when we're going to do that evaluation??:)

Rick,
I wish I knew 18 years ago what I know about "tweaking" tubas today. There are a couple of customers I wish I could have a "do over" with. I will fall for your question about can I personally feel the subtle differences that make a horn better than another and that usually it is yes. Remember that in a typical day I will play 3 or more tubas testing after a repair or testing new and used horns for someone that can't make it to the store. If I just got done doing $100 worth of work for $50 because that is all the school can afford to put a horn back into a student's hands, I don't waste time trying to tweak it up to the best that it can be. If a customer asks me to see if I can make the horn play better, I turn on a little mental switch to get real critical (I work to keep that turned off because I have all the DNA of Grouchy Old Fart.) and then tear into the horn feeling resistance as I play and listening for sound color between valve combinations. That stuff is fun but you have to ask.

bloke wrote:There's really nothing we can do to help 17-year-olds who post on here asking whether they should buy a Nirschl York model, a Hirsbrunner York model, a M-W York model, or a Yamaha York model.

I wish it was just the students who thought that way. I briefly had a student (OK player, but definitely not great) who was told by his former teacher that he HAD to buy a certain $10,000 tuba, as well as that teacher's brand of mouthpiece. Last I heard, the poor kid is working in the food service industry.

Matt is the man. When Matt Walters speaks people should listen!

Rivercity Tuba wrote:Matt is the man. When Matt Walters speaks people should listen!

Big +1

mark

Matt Walters wrote:The really bad players sound like crap on every horn, but if they sound even worse on one horn, they think it must be a bad horn that nobody will like. One day I had a HACK with the tone quality of a flatulent hippo ask me, “Don’t you have any nice sounding tubas in this store?” I bit my lip to keep from saying, “Not when you play them!" and "We asked the manufacturers to only send us crap.” Instead I asked, “Are you in the market to buy a nice tuba?” He said, “No, I just wanted to play what you have.” My reply was something like, “It sounds like we just don’t have a tuba in stock that is fitting for a player of your caliber. Is there anything else I can show you before I get back to my repair work?”

Matt, that is effen priceless....Love it

Maybe this is all a part of the digital age. 50 years ago, folks would have been hard pressed to have as many options to try horns as they do today. Talking about horns with other tubists would have been even less practical. Getting lots of opinions about a specific instrument from professional players would have been next to impossible. That we (anywhere in the world) can post comments for anyone to see and discuss has really changed how this whole process has ever worked. But even with all the expanded possibilities, it still always boils down to the same thing: knowledge is power. Do your homework, don't rely on someone else doing it for you, no matter who they are.

Haha, great Matt... now I'm trying to remember what you've said to me when I've been there testing out tubas. (Kidding, of course!)

I saw and heard Matt play the York at a rehearsal last night. I have no idea whatsoever if the tuba is any good at all. However, in my own not-to-be-trusted novice opinion it sounded pretty good.

Hup

thezman wrote:Can you put that in a pamphlet that we can send to every High School in the country?

... and the universities.

Rivercity Tuba wrote:Matt is the man. When Matt Walters speaks people should listen!

Ditto that!

I want to thank Matt for his original post in this thread. His level of knowledge in this particular area probably surpasses that of most, if not all, of us on TubeNet. TubeNet remains a great place to exchange knowledge. In this case, as in most cases, I am simply a recipient of knowledge.

Matt is "The Man."

Excellent thread
I will just say that there are some here who will immediately mention a certain model tuba *cough* Miraphone 186 *cough* to someone looking to buy their first tuba, even though that particular tuba may or may not be to his/her liking. Just because a certain model has been accepted as "the standard" does not mean everyone will like it's tonal or playing qualities. That's why I try to mention several good, known/quality tubas.

Everyone has their own sound concept, playing ability, lung capacity, oral cavity, tooth angle, lip musculature/mouth shape, etc and this is exactly why we have so many different models of tubas & mouthpieces.

Don't know how to post pictures here. Computers and I have a hate-hate relationship. I actually had a computer professor talk me through the steps to look at a picture on a website of a tuba he wanted me to see. Doing exactly what he said to do and was doing on his computer, I could not get the computer here to give me the same results and open up the picture.

hrender wrote:Care to post a picture of the King?

Sorry, I don't have photos of the King. But I was able to get some shots of the York during a break between a rehearsal and concert today. This tuba is reputed to be one of the world's best tubas if your name happens to be Matt Walters.









By the way I tried it out and I like it a lot but what do I know?

Hup

Hi-
I am sure if Matt built this--especially for his own use-- it plays fantastic! Great looking tuba!

Mark