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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby UncleBeer » Sun May 13, 2018 3:54 pm

bloke wrote: The whole reason that he reportedly disliked the bombardoni was because they sounded harsh or "hoarse"...Is anyone here going to take up the argument that a modern full-board tuba sound, typically, is "harsh/hoarse" whereas the sound of a modern-day full-board contrabass valve trombone sound is "pretty/smooth"...??


Verdi objected to the tuba because it didn't "blend with the others". In his own words:

“I wish to insist again on a fourth trombone. I would prefer a trombone basso which is one of the same family as the others. If this turns out to be too much trouble and is too difficult to play, then get again one of those ordinary ophicleides that go down to the low B. In fact, use anything you like, but not that devil of a tuba which does not blend with the others!”


I would also wager the "wooden thing with holes and metal bell" didn't blend awfully well with the trombones. Thus, the contrabass valve trombone.

Edit: this link seems to provide a pretty credible account of the cimbasso's development: http://jscottirvine.com/little-backgrou ... trombones/
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby bloke » Sun May 13, 2018 8:05 pm

...as we continue to go around in circles...
...no physical evidence from that period of anything other than extra-long slide trombone things, wooden things with holes and metal bells (cimbasso's, which - fairly obviously - were derived from serpents), ophicleides, and (perhaps, by the very end of Verdi's "cimbasso" era, so fairly doubtful that Verdi laid eyes on one by the end of his "cimbasso parts" era) a dozen or so - total - things (again: after at least half of the Verdi-designated "cimbasso" parts had been written) that had been made in eastern Czechoslovakia called "tubas".

https://steemit.com/music/@harlotscurse/bass-tuba-the-original-of-the-species
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby UncleBeer » Sun May 13, 2018 8:23 pm

bloke wrote:...as we continue to go around in circles...
...no physical evidence from that period of anything other than extra-long slide trombone things


As the link says, Verdi firmly decided in favor of the valve contrabass trombone in 1881. This was his own decision, and not that of some know-it-all after Verdi's death. This, in contrast to Berlioz' current 'helpers' who've apparently decided that Dies Irae really, really needs to be played two octaves down, despite the composer's express wishes.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby bloke » Sun May 13, 2018 9:37 pm

again...
More talking in circles.
Everyone seems to wish to believe that Verdi did not know the word "trombone"...even though he wrote for and specified trombones, and even wrote the word "trombone"… and that he chose to use a word that - at that time - meant "a wooden instrument with holes in it and a metal bell" to cryptically mean "contrabass trombone"...

... to a related topic,
Considering the hygene of the day, the percentage of food which was spoiled - yet eaten, and widespread minor illnesses that were both acute and chronic, can you just imagine how badly it stunk to sit in close quarters and play in a symphony orchestra during that time?
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby imperialbari » Tue May 15, 2018 11:09 am

The technical problems in creating a bass valve trombone, when the tenor valve trombones was already invented and in use in the Italian opera orchestras would have been manageable with period materials and period tools. Without being anything like a specialist in Italian opera, I still have heard about a conservating factor, which may have delayed the introduction of the more efficient valved bass trombone in the Italian opera houses.

There exists correspondence between Verdi and managers of Italian opera house, from around 1843 I seem to remember, where the managers plead their case for a standard opera orchestration, so that the managers could keep steady orchestra sizes.

I took a look at the scores of Verdi’s 2 last operas, Otello and Falstaff. Both scores specify Trombone Basso as their bottom instrument of the brass section. The Otello opening implies valve trombones being meant.

If my eyes allowed so, I would look at more of Verdi’s scores and possibly also scores by other period composers to see when the lowest brass part was renamed from Cimbasso to Trombone Basso. And then I suspect there must have been a late 19th century convention within the Italian opera sphere, which said that Cimbasso parts were performed on valved bass trombones right from when the swap between the two instruments was agreed upon.

That may account for the oddity that the name of a wooden instrument was transferred to an instrument, which technically is a valved bass trombone.

As for playing in close quarters back then: During the years while Verdi was active as a composer not even La Scala in Milan had an orchestra pit. The orchestra sat on the same level as the public in the Parterre. Alloin one big flat floor. Not even screens as dividers between the musicians and the public.

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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby bloke » Tue May 15, 2018 1:10 pm

circular argumentative points continue to be submitted.

This probably being true...

The technical problems in creating a bass valve trombone, when the tenor valve trombones was already invented and in use in the Italian opera orchestras would have been manageable with period materials and period tools.


...to date, no one has shown me a photograph of one (much less "some") that were made during-or-before the time period that those pieces of music were written that requested a "cimbasso".

I took a look at the scores of Verdi’s 2 last operas, Otello and Falstaff. Both scores specify Trombone Basso as their bottom instrument of the brass section. The Otello opening implies valve trombones being meant.


OK...so not "cimbasso", and it isn't immediately apparent (at least, not to me) why valves would be "implied", but (again) not cimbasso-related, but tangential.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby Donn » Tue May 15, 2018 2:42 pm

bloke wrote:...to date, no one has shown me a photograph of one (much less "some") that were made during-or-before the time period that those pieces of music were written that requested a "cimbasso".


Maybe Verdi kept them so busy, that the instruments were all used to death and none survived to be collectors' items.

I took a look at the scores of Verdi’s 2 last operas, Otello and Falstaff. Both scores specify Trombone Basso as their bottom instrument of the brass section. The Otello opening implies valve trombones being meant.


OK...so not "cimbasso", and it isn't immediately apparent (at least, not to me) why valves would be "implied", but (again) not cimbasso-related, but tangential.


Check for something like "Non preoccuparti troppo se non esattamente en accordo, il resto della sezione sono stesso tromboni a valvole."
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby bloke » Tue May 15, 2018 11:43 pm

8)
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby TheTuba » Wed May 16, 2018 6:15 am

goodgigs wrote:
KiltieTuba wrote:All those old instruments are irrelevant. This is like the thread on bringing back the ophicleide into the modern orchestra - there's a reason why we don't see old designs used regularly... Hence why bloke probably won't find a photograph like the picture posted.

I blame the 1960-80s generations for all the loud music and louder music that has caused the older instruments, like the ophicleide, to be replaced by louder versions to accommodate for the new generation of people with hearing problems... :tuba: :tuba:


+1 "I heard that"


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