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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby Donn » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:17 pm

ghmerrill wrote:As Bloke observed, it appears to be a marching baritone/euphonium body with a cylindrical valve section grafted on. So there is a significant proportion of conical tubing in that instrument. Definitely sounds like a tuba rather than any kind of trombone.


What's the difference between
  • a baritone with a cylindrical valve section grafted on, and
  • a baritone?

The leadpipe?
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby eupher61 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:22 pm

anyone have good contact info for Steve Call? the last email I had was rejected. He'd be the obvious choice to ask about the horn.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby bloke » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:29 pm

Donn,

Except for the direction of the bell, I don't see much difference between the marching-baritone-cimbassos and those miniature-F-tuba things.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby eupher61 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:37 pm

Can we agree on one thing, at least:

The determination has been made that this is the type of instrument which is NOW considered a cimbasso, no matter what Verdi had in mind or in use.

The problem as I see it is that now, anyone auditioning for an opera gig has to have yet another instrument. I'm not trying to be nosy about pay, but does the Met, f'rinstance, consider cimbasso a double? How about any other company in the US? How about European companies??

jest wonderin'
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby Lingon » Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:09 am

bloke wrote:...It looks like one of those "marching baritone" cimbassos...

Hmm, we do not have that terminology where I am so I do not know exactly what you mean with that? But, I think it show similarities, at least the bell section and the number of valves, with both, what is said to be, the 1881 cb valve trbn
The attachment Cimbasso.jpg is no longer available
and this Orsi one?
Cimbasso.jpg
Cimbasso.jpg (9.17 KiB) Viewed 1650 times
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby imperialbari » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:57 am

John, de hjemmebyggede cimbassoer, hvor klangstykket plus de første buer er taget fra et kornetformet tenorhorn. Sam Gnagey har lavet to i F og Es, som kan ses i mit galleri.

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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby Lingon » Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:52 am

imperialbari wrote:...Sam Gnagey har lavet to i F og Es, som kan ses i mit galleri...

Tack Klaus. Då förstår jag :)


Well then I do not think Steve Call's instrument looks like a home brow, especially when comparing his bell piece to those in the pics I posted earlier, which it of course could be anyway?

The buttons on his instrument also looks like what I have seen on some old Italian horns possibly Pelitti, Orsi or something else...
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby bloke » Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:37 am

I suspect a hodgepodge of parts.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby ghmerrill » Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:22 am

Donn wrote:What's the difference between
  • a baritone with a cylindrical valve section grafted on, and
  • a baritone?

The leadpipe?


In a totally unquantified sense, there is no difference. But that's the wrong question. The right question would be "What's the difference between a Bb baritone and a Bb baritone body/bell section with an F or Eb valve section grafted on?" Or better, in this case, "What's the difference between an F/Eb cylindrical valve section coupled to a trombone-like bell section and that same valve section coupled to a baritone bell section?" The answer is "The difference between a trombone sound and a tuba sound -- due in large part to the relative lengths of the cylindrical and conical sections."
Last edited by ghmerrill on Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby ghmerrill » Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:36 am

Lingon wrote:Hmm, we do not have that terminology where I am so I do not know exactly what you mean with that? But, I think it show similarities, at least the bell section and the number of valves, with both, what is said to be, the 1881 cb valve trbn


Those pictures are at least superficially similar to the baritone/cimbasso -- but only in the rough shape of the bell section. To me, at least, even though the bell sections are wrapped in virtually identical ways, the pictures you have posted appear to show a bell section that is more cylindrical up to the point where the bell starts to flare. Or so it appears to me, though it is somewhat difficult to tell from the pictures.

All of those, however, are quite different from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TFJS0QdbFQ and http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/XTB301-Cimbasso-Trombone-jinbao-euphonium-ram_1903690774.html.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby Lingon » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:41 pm

ghmerrill wrote:...Those pictures are at least superficially similar to the baritone/cimbasso -- but only in the rough shape of the bell section...
...All of those, however, are quite different from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TFJS0QdbFQ and http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/XTB301-Cimbasso-Trombone-jinbao-euphonium-ram_1903690774.html...

True, which seems to indicate that your examples are more of the modern even more cylindrical cimbasso than mine that seems to be somewhat like the description I have seen of the older a bit more tapered cb trbn Verdi. I think I got the difference between the bariton-cimbasso and the cimbasso - cimbasso now, all more or less in the family cb valve trbns. However the Gnagey homebrevs in Klaus' gallyery seems to be even more tapered than Call's and the ones in my post?

There seems to be some similarities also when comparing the cb slide trbn in BBb and F as the BBbs also are more tapered compared with the more cylindrical F. At least when looking at the Miraphone/Jinbao and many of the modern Fs.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby Biggs » Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:06 pm

eupher61 wrote:
The problem as I see it is that now, anyone auditioning for an opera gig has to have yet another instrument. I'm not trying to be nosy about pay, but does the Met, f'rinstance, consider cimbasso a double? How about any other company in the US? How about European companies??

jest wonderin'


I'm comically far-removed from any sort of high-end audition circuit, but I recall (with about 95% confidence in this particular memory) that the Chicago Lyric Opera required cimbasso in their most recent audition (per their excerpts list) and was willing to grant auditioners the use of the Eb cimbasso owned by the company if they so chose. Someone closer to the situation (the winner, perhaps!) could probably give more complete and more accurate commentary about this and other similar instances.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby emcallaway » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:55 pm

I believe that the real point of discussion that everyone is really dancing around here is whether Verdi preferred his cimbassi in lacquer, raw brass, or silver plate. :tuba:
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby quesonegro » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:56 pm

Silver plated, always silver plated!!
Last edited by quesonegro on Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby imperialbari » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:02 am

Yes, please! Always on a silver plate!
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby pjv » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:00 am

The only reason I own a cimbasso is because my tuba hates Verdi.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby J.c. Sherman » Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:25 pm

Biggs wrote:
eupher61 wrote:
The problem as I see it is that now, anyone auditioning for an opera gig has to have yet another instrument. I'm not trying to be nosy about pay, but does the Met, f'rinstance, consider cimbasso a double? How about any other company in the US? How about European companies??

jest wonderin'


I'm comically far-removed from any sort of high-end audition circuit, but I recall (with about 95% confidence in this particular memory) that the Chicago Lyric Opera required cimbasso in their most recent audition (per their excerpts list) and was willing to grant auditioners the use of the Eb cimbasso owned by the company if they so chose. Someone closer to the situation (the winner, perhaps!) could probably give more complete and more accurate commentary about this and other similar instances.


Correct; the cimbasso was not used in the first round, however.

The video shows a very typical (non-hodge-podge) Italian-style instrument.

We do know what Verdi accepted and sanctioned. It was manufactured by Pelitti and is well documented and often copied. Modern instruments show a variety of layouts, similar to the wide variety of trombones.

An "extended Baritone" would differ from a contrabass valve trombone in the overall bore profile and in the bore, receiver, and mouthpiece used. It would be a very, very different sound!

J.c.S.
Instructor of Tuba & Euphonium, Cleveland State University
Principal Tuba, Firelands Symphony Orchestra
President, Variations in Brass
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby bloke » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:49 pm

greatest

troll

EVER

.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby bisontuba » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:01 pm

Not 1870 but 1890-1900? On ebay...FYI...Mark

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380974078669?ss ... 1423.l2649
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Postby bloke » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:07 pm

...so (even though post-Verdi) since it's Italian-made and a chimbacco, shouldn't everyone be clamoring over this one (instead of buying jimbo's) ?
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