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I don't know, but they are flat. I mentioned it to my teacher once, when the 3&5J were being proto-typed, and he said it was because Conn researched school kids and said they played sharper as they went lower. The horn was too small for his tastes anyway.

Joe... I've seen the same problem on the 4J horns, too.

I don't remember the slide lengths being too long on the Conn 2j which I formerly owned. I could tell that the 4th valve slide had been shortened, but not the others. However, I haven't seen that tuba in probably 4 or 5 years so my brain could be fuzzy.

The tuning slides work a little better if it's played as a 3 valve horn. Mr.Phillips would use the fourth valve for the low (start using the 5th valve) range, so I've read. I'm assuming that's why these 2Js were designed with such a long 4th valve slide. The third valve slide is also a little on the long side. (The Holton he was "involved" with also reportedly has funky tuning.) While I have owned a 2J for a while, the only "in tune" playing I had to do was with myself. At the time, I would just pull the horn out every once in a while just to remind my tuba chops what it's like to play. It's a nice "do it all tuba"

Joe,

I played a 2J from around '75-'81. I didn't find a problem with the slides being too long. They didn't have the kind of pull that many of our current German horns have. The 4th valve slide was interesting though. My 2J came with 2 4th valve slides. The shorter of the 2 was a perfect 4th with about 3/4 - 1 inch pull. The longer slide was a full augmented 4th with about the same amount of pull. This made it possible to actually play the horn with a complete chromatic scale down to the 1st partial CC and beyond. Once you relearned a few fingerings and did some modest 1st valve manipulation down there it was actually pretty useful! The overall intonation on both the 2J and 3J (I still have a 3J) was superb. Easy horns to play, very user friendly quintet/chamber horns. They also recorded very well in a studio. I hope this helps.

k001k47 wrote:The tuning slides work a little better if it's played as a 3 valve horn. Mr.Phillips would use the fourth valve for the low (start using the 5th valve) range, so I've read. I'm assuming that's why these 2Js were designed with such a long 4th valve slide. The third valve slide is also a little on the long side. (The Holton he was "involved" with also reportedly has funky tuning.) While I have owned a 2J for a while, the only "in tune" playing I had to do was with myself. At the time, I would just pull the horn out every once in a while just to remind my tuba chops what it's like to play. It's a nice "do it all tuba"

I found the same thing with the local public school's BBb models of the Conn and trimmed down several third valve lengths over the years. They also included with the horns a short 4th valve slide. My understanding is what is expained here that the 4th valve was designed with the long slide to be used only with the low register, so one could play down below low F on the BBb with 4th and the octave above fingerings (ie. low D played 124 etc.) I've found the same system employed on old 4 valve sousaphones too.

Sam Gnagey wrote:

k001k47 wrote:The tuning slides work a little better if it's played as a 3 valve horn. Mr.Phillips would use the fourth valve for the low (start using the 5th valve) range, so I've read. I'm assuming that's why these 2Js were designed with such a long 4th valve slide. The third valve slide is also a little on the long side. (The Holton he was "involved" with also reportedly has funky tuning.) While I have owned a 2J for a while, the only "in tune" playing I had to do was with myself. At the time, I would just pull the horn out every once in a while just to remind my tuba chops what it's like to play. It's a nice "do it all tuba"

I found the same thing with the local public school's BBb models of the Conn and trimmed down several third valve lengths over the years. They also included with the horns a short 4th valve slide. My understanding is what is expained here that the 4th valve was designed with the long slide to be used only with the low register, so one could play down below low F on the BBb with 4th and the octave above fingerings (ie. low D played 124 etc.) I've found the same system employed on old 4 valve sousaphones too.

Neat, perhaps Phillips favored this system because he did a lot of sousaphone playing in the Barnum and Bailey band: just speculation on my part though. Maybe all old horns had the same 4 valve system, but I'm too young to know. I wish I had the Conn 2J with me to see if it had that +4 slide or not. the elephant owned it for a bit though, so he could probably recall better. Mr. Murrow's insight on the horn is really useful.
I replied all wrong. I didn't even address bloke's question.
My answer is I don't know.

bloke wrote:It seems to me that *some* folks' concept of "the fourth valve" was as an "auxiliary" valve - not to be used in the normal playing range of the instrument, but *only* to be used to *extend* the range of the tuba *below* the lowest 2nd partial (fingered 1-2-3) pitch. Otherwise (I'm thinking, based on slide lengths that I see on some old 4-valve American-made tubas) I believe players were expected to play everything with the first three valves.

I agree. I think said fourth valve - along with the flat whole step fifth - is an evolution of the Bb and Eb basses popular in American bands. . . I think I wonder who created the first CC tuba. . . besides that French c saxhorn thing. You know, this really makes me wish there was a history of the tuba documentary, or book.

k001k47 wrote:

bloke wrote:It seems to me that *some* folks' concept of "the fourth valve" was as an "auxiliary" valve - not to be used in the normal playing range of the instrument, but *only* to be used to *extend* the range of the tuba *below* the lowest 2nd partial (fingered 1-2-3) pitch. Otherwise (I'm thinking, based on slide lengths that I see on some old 4-valve American-made tubas) I believe players were expected to play everything with the first three valves.

I agree. I think said fourth valve - along with the flat whole step fifth - is an evolution of the Bb and Eb basses popular in American bands. . . I think I wonder who created the first CC tuba. . . besides that French c saxhorn thing. You know, this really makes me wish there was a history of the tuba documentary, or book.

I hope you're being sarcastic. The Tuba Family by Clifford Bevan should be in every tubist's library. I could be wrong but I think Cerveny created the first CC tuba.

Tubazilla wrote:

k001k47 wrote:

bloke wrote:It seems to me that *some* folks' concept of "the fourth valve" was as an "auxiliary" valve - not to be used in the normal playing range of the instrument, but *only* to be used to *extend* the range of the tuba *below* the lowest 2nd partial (fingered 1-2-3) pitch. Otherwise (I'm thinking, based on slide lengths that I see on some old 4-valve American-made tubas) I believe players were expected to play everything with the first three valves.

I agree. I think said fourth valve - along with the flat whole step fifth - is an evolution of the Bb and Eb basses popular in American bands. . . I think I wonder who created the first CC tuba. . . besides that French c saxhorn thing. You know, this really makes me wish there was a history of the tuba documentary, or book.

I hope you're being sarcastic. The Tuba Family by Clifford Bevan should be in every tubist's library. I could be wrong but I think Cerveny created the first CC tuba.

I was completely serious, sir. I'll look into picking one up. Thanks for that.
...still wish there was some documentary on the tube

Had the joy of an extended loan of a 2J for some time. I really loved the instrument. I never found the slides too flat, and there wasn't any obvious evidence of slide cutting.

Damn nice instrument!

J.c.S.

I think BigBob still has one of these from 1979 for sale, silver plated and in very good condition.

I'm pretty sure that Bob's is a 3J. I've never played a 3J that I didn't like or a 2J that I did but everyone is entitled to their own preferences. Ed

MartyNeilan wrote:I think BigBob still has one of these from 1979 for sale, silver plated and in very good condition.

I heard that Double B just sold his 3J! Congratulations are in order!

I'm with J.c. on this issue - I haven't found the length of the slides on our 2J to be a significant problem. I usually play with the 1st slide out an inch for the 1st though 4th partials, all the way in for the 5th partial, and 1/4 inch out above there. I'd like to shorten the lower half of that slide to its brace to get the in-staff D and Db (fifth partial) to come up better in tune, though. The 2nd slide is always a 1/4 inch out, and the 3rd slide is all the way in. The fourth slide is an inch out, and I must have the shorter version. I hardly ever play below G below the staff anyway (this horn doesn't center well below there), so the longer slide wouldn't do me much good. I could see where players might prefer to play these horns as predominately three valvers, and just use the 4th valve for the pedal register. Myself, I just play with all four.

As for Big Bob selling his 3J, good for him, and rats for me. I would have liked to have been the guy who bought it from him, since I was hoping to buy a 3J when I bought our 2J.

Thanks for bringing this up, Bloke -