Odd Extra Tonguing Sound

[bobbob0100]

So, I usually lurk around the For Sale section around here, but I need some help.

I have what I believe is a problem. When I articulate notes 2 or more in a row, there is an extra sound that I hear. It is almost like a little kid that doesnt know how to whistle is trying to whistle, if that gives you an idea. Just to make sure I wasn't only hearing it "behind the bell" I recorded myself and still hear it.

So, is this normal? I'm betting it ain't.

Is there something I can do to fix it?


Thanks for your help in advance, tubnetters.

Guy


EDIT: I have recorded the problem in action. Hopefully it helps.
Here is a download link to the audio.
http://www.2shared.com/audio/1_Nr4h29/t ... oblem.html" target="_blank

[pierso20]

No one here can help you if we can't hear/see you (and many are amateurs anyway...you should ask a teacher, though I know it may not be always possible).

Maybe take a quick video of it happening (good video/sound quality) and share it with us. That could help.

[bobbob0100]

Brooke: I'm going to be getting some lessons from other people this summer. My teacher from my high school years didn't think it was a big problem. If all else fails, I'm sure Professor Pilafian will be able to straighten it out in the fall.

Bloke: I have the problem not only on my CC but on my F tuba as well, and its pretty new. I have the problem on my trombones as well. I have the problem on other peoples tubas and they don't have the problem on my tubas. I think it has to be an error in my playing. Of course, it is time to take my CC in to be cleaned

[toobagrowl]

[Roger Lewis]

I'm pretty sure I understand what you are hearing and know how to fix it. This is a pretty common thing that many players deal with at some time or another.

Drop me a PM and I'll talk you through it. It's not hard. If enough people want to see what I have to say I'll post the answer.

I have to leave to play a concert shortly so I might not be able to get back to you until later tonight.

Roger

[Doug Elliott]

As Roger said, that little extra sound when tonguing is not uncommon at all.

My suggestion is to put in earplugs, so you can clearly hear what's going on inside your mouth. Now practice tonguing while adjusting the position of the "T" or "D" tongue-strike, especially moving it back away from your teeth. You should be able to hear when the noise clears up.

It will probably feel very awkward, maybe horrible, and maybe it won't really work very well. At least that was my experience.... But give it a few weeks or months until it feels normal to tongue there. Be sure to practice single, double, and triple, placing the "T" or "D" in the same spot. Legato will work MUCH better than any harder or shorter articulations at first.

[Roger Lewis]

From how you describe it I would guess that you are hearing a small puff of air before the actual buzz begins to sound the note. Here's what's happening and how to fix it.

We are going to work with elements of your attack. I always tell my students that when you are working on attack issues and evaluating the attack "syllable" that you whisper when doing so. You do not want to activate the vocal chords as it can become a subconscious issue that turns into a habit that is truly hard to reverse (been there, done that).

The sound you hear is coming from non-energized air (what I call stable air) in the oral cavity and you are actually starting the pressurized air from someplace further back in the mouth or throat. You may actually be "coughing" the attack with the tongue going through the motions, but not actually working as the "valve" or doing anything for the air stream. All this stable air needs to be pushed out of the way to get the energized air from the lungs to the embouchure. It passes through the lips without creating "work" or getting the lips to vibrate so it sounds like a brief hissing noise that is then amplified by the tuba. I believe this is what you are hearing.

The solution is to get the pressurized air up to the front of the oral cavity, behind the tongue where it belongs. Here is how you do that.

Whisper the syllable "hut" (as in Jabba the ...) and HOLD THE "T". The air is now under pressure behind the tongue and you can feel it there. Now go from the held "T" into your whispered attack syllable. I personally prefer TOE myself but you can use whatever suits your playing style.

Practice this away from the horn, slowly: HUT.....TOE, HUT...TOE, etc., always whispering, and then slowly start shortening the time between the HUT and the TOE until the two syllables become one single, simple motion. This will get you used to the feel of the pressurized air being right behind the tongue and have you going right into your attack. Now try it on the mouthpiece for a little while keeping it as one motion now incorporating the buzz into the activity. Then try it on the horn and see if there is a difference.

It should not take very long to get this to work and to see the results from the change.

What you also want to do is to try to figure out where you have been starting the air from to see if there is a possible closing of the throat going on as well. We want to try to eliminate that behavior at the same time we improve the efficiency of the attack so you are going to need to do some self evaluation to figure out what you HAVE been doing so that it does not complicate this small change. When I work on embouchure issues in my own playing, I usually work in a completely dark room, so that there are no distractions and I can pay close attention to what is going on in that part of our instrument that we cannot see.

Give it a try and report back to the TNFJ to let us know if this solved the problem.

All the best to you.

Roger

[sousaphone68]

As per another recent thread might this problem be an opportunity to try a Skype diagnosis and cure?

[Roger Lewis]

I don't know if Skype would be sensitive enough to be able to catch this one easily. I usually have to get my head pretty close the the student's bell to hear it.

But I think I can tell you where it comes from and that this may be something we all have to deal with sooner or later. It comes from trying to over finesse your attacks, especially at softer dynamics. We try to make the attack really smooth and barely noticeable and we start fooling around with our air to find a way to do this - then Blammo - all of a sudden we start to notice this extra sound coming from the horn.

This particular issue is one reason that my warm up routine (which varies depending on issues that I find in my playing) includes working on attacks slowly and deliberately. I pick a note, any note, and then try to play that note 20 times with the exact same attack, timbre, sound quality and dynamic. It's harder than it sounds because you can't lie to yourself about it. If I fail to get 20 on the first attempt I pick another note and go for 20 on that note. This drill helps build consistency for your attack but also focus and concentration.

As I get up to about 16 my mind starts to wander a bit and I start looking ahead to the next thing on my agenda and then I'll blow an attack and have to start over. As you go through an exercise or an etude (or anything really), the closer you get to the end, the more you let down mentally and you might as well have a loaded gun aimed at your foot (this will be self inflicted). The further you go into a piece the more intense you have to get and the more focused you need to be. AND IT WILL BE THE EASY STUFF YOU SCREW UP because you THINK you can play that without any problem. Guess again. It's like Bydlo. You'll never miss the high G# (at least most of the time) but you will tend to screw up the D# after it more often, usually because you are patting yourself on the back for nailing the G# INSTEAD OF PAYING ATTENTION.

Just my ramblings for today.

Roger

[bobbob0100]

So, just an update.

I havent had a chance to record myself. I was planning on using a friends device, but I don't have anything decent over here.

BUT, I did get a chance to try out the earplugs thing. I couldn't the sound at all almost, which was a little weird. I don't think I was doing much different, but I did try fooling around with articulation locations and learned some other stuff. Thanks for the tip, Doug!

Roger, I tried what you were saying, and I think my initial attack is fine. But, I started to think about when the sound would start occurring. I slowed down my whole tongue motion and realized that the sound is beginning on the "recoil", if I may, of the attack.

To better describe it, the sound is in between notes. To write it out, I would say it is Toh-EE-Toh-EE-Toh-EE. And that EE sound is what is getting to me. I think it might be a whistle occurring when the air passes over my tongue as it returns to the articulating position.

Perhaps this will provide some more information until I can get access to a good recording device.

[Doug Elliott]

...
To better describe it, the sound is in between notes. To write it out, I would say it is Toh-EE-Toh-EE-Toh-EE. And that EE sound is what is getting to me. I think it might be a whistle occurring when the air passes over my tongue as it returns to the articulating position.
...

Pay close attention to what the tip of your tongue is doing while you're holding a note. It sounds to me like the tip needs to STAY in the bottom of your mouth all the way until the next articulation, but you're raising it early, in anticipation of the next attack. The tongue does not need to "return to the articulating position" until the instant of the next articulation. It should be TaaaaaaTaaaaaaTaaaaaa, not TaaaeeeTaaaeeeTaaaeee.

[bobbob0100]

I understand what my goal is. I keep my tongue down as long as possible and only bring it up for articulation, but it seems to create a little suction-y effect.

I have just recorded on a laptop and the problem shows through. I have uploaded the file, since attaching it to this post was not allowed. http://www.2shared.com/audio/1_Nr4h29/t ... oblem.html" target="_blank

[Doug Elliott]

That sounds exactly like what I thought it was. Your tongue is too close to your lips and teeth, and it's either hitting the back of your lips or just messing with the air as it goes by. Tongue farther back, toward the "bump" on the top of your mouth where the hard palate becomes the soft palate. That will keep it out of the way. Refer to my first post.

[bobbob0100]

Alright, I'll give it a shot in the morning. Thanks for the help everyone!