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Interested in possible purchase of a used one, but must be a European manufacturer. I play oval euph with a blaskapel and there may be a need for me to switch from a euph to a tenor horn part. Its not easy finding musicians willing to commit to 20 or more performances every year. Would be interested in anyones experience playing one. Are there bbs sites like this for french horners? Would it work for the tenor horn part?

Welcome as a poster!

Wagner Tubas come in Bb and F. They are played with horn mouthpieces.

From what you write you are not wanting a Wagner Tuba. You want an oval instrument, but it isn’t clear either whether you want an Eb alto horn or a Bb Tenorhorn.

The terminology is confusing, as it is based in national traditions. In 2001 I wrote this little dissertation on the topic:

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/jul2001 ... 61604.html

Klaus

Wagners are a little weird, using the left hand. Makes sense, and it is supposed to be related to a French horn. As for the ergonomics of the dang thing, I find it really uncomfortable to stick my right hand in the bell whilst playing, tho....(this is a joke, folks..sheesh!)

On the old saw of differences between baritone and euphonium, I always thought it was a matter of cost. If you paid a lot for it, you get to call it a euph....

Dennis

KiltieTuba wrote:Wagner tuba are a little more tuba like than a french horn. I think they fit well with British brass bands.

The difference between baritones and euhoniums is in their construction: baritones are primarily a cylindrical instrument with a smaller bore comparable to a tenor trombone, while euphoniums are like small tubas, bores of similar size to a symphony sized trombone or larger, and are primarily a conical instrument. It's like the difference between a trumpet and a cornet.

Very interesting statement!

Based on experiences with Wagner Tuben?

Based on experiences with brass bands?

KiltieTuba wrote:Wagner tuba are a little more tuba like than a french horn. I think they fit well with British brass bands.

The difference between baritones and euhoniums is in their construction: baritones are primarily a cylindrical instrument with a smaller bore comparable to a tenor trombone, while euphoniums are like small tubas, bores of similar size to a symphony sized trombone or larger, and are primarily a conical instrument. It's like the difference between a trumpet and a cornet.

Huh? Wow. This is big news.

I am a tad confused. I was always told they more closely resembled a horn than tuba, and were used to replicate the horn sound with a more distant and mellow color. They also share similar range. I have never played one, and am channelling my music history courses. So, I could be wrong. Could someone set me straight here, or do I have to crack open my music history texts. I would rather not disturb the dust they have so nicely gathered.

http://www.wagner-tuba.com/instrument.htm

Are you sure this is what you are seeking?

Ian, you have no clue as to 1)what you've likely caused to happen here 2)what you are talking about.

I think the facts you can find on your own will be enough. No proof is needed here. Your observations are totally misguided.

KiltieTuba wrote: Ok, do you use your hand inside the throat to tune a Wagner tuba (we'll shorten it to WT)? Since the WT has a more mellow-ish sound and point in a more upward direction (sideways recording bell), it's (to me) less like a french horn. Sure it's left hand (like a horn) but aren't some tubas, and aren't some french horns right handed?

Just asking questions... for discussion (board)

Nor do you stick your hand in a Marching French Horn. By your own supposition, This would make it more trumpet than Horn. The Wagner Tuba was created to specifically have a more mellow tone than the French horn. This does not preclude a relation between the two, but represents a difference that makes the instrument unique. I think Tubatinker offers a website that explains it more clearly than I can.

TubaTinker wrote:http://www.wagner-tuba.com/instrument.htm

Are you sure this is what you are seeking?

Sometimes one wants to pull the killertie on Kiltie when he insists on distributing nonsense.

The Wagner tuba like the horn has a lot of cylindrical tubing between leadpipe and the beginning of the expansion. With its small mouthpiece and its narrow leadpipe it is considered a hard to control instrument not much liked by most horn players. The WT’s wouldn’t provide sufficient flexible playing to work in the British style brass bands.

The OP is the victim of yet another bad influence from the eBay marketing of Chinese instruments out of China. The Chinese don’t have the making of European style brass instruments as part of their cultural heritage like the Czechs and the Germans have in the field of rotary brasses including Wagner Tubas and the ovals relevant to TubeNet members: Tenorhorn and Bariton.

The Chinese sell some Wagner Tubas in the form of compensating double WT’s in Bb and F. They sell many more of the large bore Bariton and the small bore Tenorhorn. Both fingered with the right hand and with their bells pointing to the players’ left. Some Chinese sellers of these have seen the mirrored oval WT’s marketed as Wagner Tubas. And as they had no idea of Western terminology they have confused less experienced Western buyers buy calling Bariton and Tenorhorn by the wrong term of Wagner Tuba.

Klaus

Wagner tuba is to baritone as Russian bassoon is to bassoon.

To the OP....A Wagner tuba is not what you want. Please, believe that. You want an oval-shaped euphonium or baritone, in American verncacular. The Wagner tuba is a totally different instrument, but the shape is almost a little bit similar in that they are both oval. Little things like bore, valve placement, mouthpiece size, and bell direction could make a big difference in your playing a Wagner tuba.

la_dee_da wrote:Are there bbs sites like this for french horners? ...

The fact that the OP talks about 'french horners' makes me tend to think he does know what he thinks he wants. If a WT is actually best for the purpose is another matter?

PS I have heard before the suggestion of using Wagner Tubas for brass band baritone part - in fact 3 x F WT and 2 x Bb WT could replace both the baritones and tenor (alto) horns. Would be interesting how that would sound!

Jonathan "who thinks the sound of the Wagner Tubas is magical - at least as used by Wagner and Bruckner"

Neptune wrote:PS I have heard before the suggestion of using Wagner Tubas for brass band baritone part - in fact 3 x F WT and 2 x Bb WT could replace both the baritones and tenor (alto) horns. Would be interesting how that would sound!

Either somebody didn’t listen or somebody spoke nonsense.

Using the F-WT’s on the Eb alto horn parts would be suicidal. These F-WT’s have a length of tubing equaling bass tubas in F and are very tough to control in the upper parts of the Eb alto horn range.

Klaus

I have been told by someone who worked in Germany for a time, that one of the legends there is that when Wagner invented the Wagner tuba, he had in mind the sound of the oval tenor tubas in the bands of the day.

However, he did not want any of those unmusical hack band players invading his precious orchestra, so he designed a similar instrument that could only be played by horn players.

The person who told me this then said, "Just think, if the low brass players of Wagner's day playing in the beer halls had just been just a little more musical in their approach, maybe the brass section for the Ring would have a section of 8 trombones with 4 doubling on tenor tuba, rather than 8 horns with 4 doubling on Wagner tuba."

Posaune2 wrote:I have been told by someone who worked in Germany for a time, that one of the legends there is that when Wagner invented the Wagner tuba, he had in mind the sound of the oval tenor tubas in the bands of the day.

However, he did not want any of those unmusical hack band players invading his precious orchestra, so he designed a similar instrument that could only be played by horn players.

The person who told me this then said, "Just think, if the low brass players of Wagner's day playing in the beer halls had just been just a little more musical in their approach, maybe the brass section for the Ring would have a section of 8 trombones with 4 doubling on tenor tuba, rather than 8 horns with 4 doubling on Wagner tuba."

If my memory is correct, part of those facts are related in the Baines book. Some of the first sketches to the Valhalla motif use the notation "soft trombone" in the margins.

What got me on the Wagner Tube kick was watching this Solti recording on Youtube,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkOiKy6sXfM It struck me that a WT would be more flexible in other bands I play.
The primary band I perform with strives to sound more like Ernst Mosch although we usually field around 30. My blaskapel should only hope to be as tight as this polka. The section at 1:22 is the sound! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwBiQoSJCPE
The discussion here got me curious and found this clip that seems to be a really good primer on WTs and other instruments Wagner had made 3:43 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvA54D2G ... re=related

I think when the push comes to switch, I will have to go to the tenor horn rather than the Wagner Tube. But i hold out hope to be able to go back to my primary instrument the tuba, a VMI 3302.

To me Mosch and Wagner Tubas represent opposite sound tendencies. And I have played quite a bit of Mosch as first flugelhorn some twenty years ago. Much more recently I got my 5 valve Wagner Tuba in F.

Mosch even goes more mellow in his own band than in his editions, which largely follow standards for German folksy bands. A standard that will work with down to 2 Flugelhorns and a Tenorhorn on three-part settings of the melody, trombone on off-beats, tuba on bass line plus drums. And which also has parts for a full concert band including 3 important trumpet parts divided between doing counterpoint fanfares and joining the 3-part melody line.

Mosch used 3 flugelhorn parts and a whole bunch of Tenorhörner and Baritonen. But only one trumpet, which then was treated very much as a soloist in its counterpoints. And most often he only took 2 tenor trombones (and no horns) on tour even if his band was so big with doubled ovals and flugelhorns, that money didn’t appear like being a factor (Mosch was very popular and filled huge halls). I have seen TV reports from his recording sessions, where he would add trumpets and a bass trombone. For an Alp-related LP and tour he added 2 horns to emulate Alphorns. But in general he was out for a tightly blended fat sound with only the trumpet sticking out.

The Met horn section plays the WT’s at a very high level with great security and with great blend, but to me their sound is much more intense and rich in overtones than is the sound of the Mosch ovals.

Klaus

Wagner Sousaphone:

We have to pull the killertie on people with no humour. Problem is humour takes a minimum of knowledge:

http://anotheroldmovieblog.blogspot.dk/