Poll: The Lesser of Two Evils

[PMeuph]

I've encountered several situations where I have seen either of these instruments used in a Brass quintet. Practically speaking both bass trombone and euphonium can have the possible range required to play the lowest part in a brass quintet. Which would you prefer?

[tbn.al]

i would not hesitate to use either, but I wouldn't use either as a substitute for tuba. There is no substitute for tuba IMHO. There are however brass quintet pieces where the rightful choice should be another instrument. These guys do it pretty well.
http://americanbrassquintet.org/" target="_blank" target="_blank

[Dan Schultz]

i would not hesitate to use either, but I wouldn't use either as a substitute for tuba.....

+1

[TubaTodd]

There is no substitute for tuba IMHO.

+1

This is a 4/4 size piston valve CC tuba which I play in the Center City Brass Quintet. I have always preferred a small CC tuba in quintet over an F tuba, because it provides a full sound which supports the other instruments.

To take it a step further, I agree with this point.

Source: http://www.craigknoxtuba.com/equipment.php

[JB]

I've encountered several situations where I have seen either of these instruments used in a Brass quintet. Practically speaking both bass trombone and euphonium can have the possible range required to play the lowest part in a brass quintet. Which would you prefer?

Answer to question, as posed: Neither*.
(Yes, we all know of "some literature" that falls into the category of "possibly an exception," but as a "broad generalization" - - no, just don't.)

[*Your poll is missing this option. It might be worth rewriting, resubmitting to give the possibility for that response.]

I am curious of the circumstances/details for these "several situations" you have encountered: no appropriate "standard instrumentation" players available in school/pickup gig, some type of ad hoc militia gig, is this in the "working world" or (no offence intended) in "school," composition(s) calling for use of euph/bass tbone for 5th voice, some type of period performance practice/"sound-blend" desire?

FWIW, I concur with Bloke when he writes...

"(more than) Occasionally, contrabass tubas used with quintets seem to sound like "a brass quartet and a bass horn". Something smaller, (yes) will tend to blend with a brass quartet better than something larger. ...

Obviously, the more sensitive the player, the more they will be able to make just-about-anything work."

[PMeuph]

I am curious of the circumstances/details for these "several situations" you have encountered: no appropriate "standard instrumentation" players available in school/pickup gig, some type of ad hoc militia gig, is this in the "working world" or (no offence intended) in "school," composition(s) calling for use of euph/bass tbone for 5th voice, some type of period performance practice/"sound-blend" desire?

Since you ask... There is a shortage of tuba players where I live. The local "professional" quintet uses bass t-bone. (i.e. Symphony players and University Profs). Most of the school quintets (for recitals, usually) use Bass T-bone. I think there were 4 recitals this year that I saw that used bass trombone, one of them where I played. Around here, bass trombone is the "accepted" norm for brass quintets, or so it seems. Euphonium is less common, (I have actually played the trombone part on euph at times) but I have seen it in school and militia contexts.

I played a wedding gig yesterday with a quintet. I played it on my Conn 12j. In hindsight, had I known the placement of the quintet*, I would have considered another horn.There were also a couple quick changes were we were sitting down and had to stand up and go play in about 5-10 seconds, making it difficult to pickup the horn tie the strap and adjust it comfortably. (I have yet to really find a comfortable way to play standing up with a strap)

*(We were standing side by side at the front off to the side but we were facing the side of the church. In other words, my bell was pointed at a trumpet player's ear (and towards the audience) and our horn player bell was pointed in the back corner (Through an open door, actually)

In other words, this gig was far from optimal.

______
As you can imagine, my euphonium chops are stronger that either my bass trombone or tuba chops. Playing this music would have been a breeze on euphonium, it would also have facilitated the changes and the peculiar placement conditions. Bass trombone would have also made the setup a lot easier and probably helped out with the bell direction.

As there are few tuba players around, I will continue to play with this quintet and I have been asked to play with another one.

Essentially the reason for my asking is simply to know, If I were stuck in another situation were tuba would be too cumbersome, which other horn should I pick? That is why I formulated and titled my question in such a manner...

That said, I definitely prefer the sound of the tuba in a brass quintet, but I might encounter another scenario where it is not practical to use it.
___
I forgot to mention. The quintet I played with might be playing a concert out of town (2 hour drive away). Since there would be little money (or no money) and this is more for the fun of playing in the trombonist's hometown, taking two cars would be impractical. In that case, fitting a tuba(even using a gigbag), in the car, along with stands music and the other instruments might not work so well. This is hypothetical, of course, but I might as well start thinking about it anyways...

[Donn]

I find the question a little surprising, but also the responses. Maybe it's just because I haven't seen that much of the quintet literature, but in terms of the `compass' of the respective instruments, it seems pretty simple to me - the bass trombone is built to play closer to the tuba's range without sacrificing its characteristic sound.

Of course, that characteristic sound is quite different from the tuba, which might be either good or bad depending on the specific piece.

Ideally, I suppose, one would have all three instruments at hand, and pick up the tuba, euphonium, or bass trombone according to the requirements of the next piece, but I understand the proposition allows only one. In that case, tuba is a good choice, bass trombone is a good choice.

[GC]

I dislike the sound of both in the bass role intensely, with a slight nod toward bass trombone as the less evil of the two.

[Bob Kolada]

I've played all three in quintet (not a lot of euph), and prefer either over what most tuba players play. A big fat bass trombone is a great match to the other instruments. I do like playing tuba, but I don't like sounding like the polar opposite of every other instrument all the time. Most euphs and euph players aren't up to the challenge though.

[Steve Marcus]

Obviously, the more sensitive the player, the more they will be able to make just-about-anything work.

...such as the 6/4 CC CSO York (not a copy nor imitation, the real McCoy). Its driver can make that big horn play so delicately in or above the staff for entire full-length quintet concerts (such as one concert in which they performed all of John Stevens' Seasons: A Symphony for Brass Quintet as part of the program). The blend with the other players is amazing. You get the best of both worlds: flexibility and lightness when required, plus the colorful support of the legendary horn.

[Rick Denney]

I voted bass trombone, simply because some of the time, bass trombone is the preferred instrument for quintet instead of the tuba. I don't ever play bass trombone in my quintet, but when playing Rennaissance stuff, I usually play a small F tuba and aim my brain for "bass trombone". The Yamaha 621 F tuba is actually pretty good in that role, particularly with a shallower mouthpiece.

It seems to me that the euphonium is never the preferred instrument. That doesn't mean I would not prefer it to missed notes or bleeding chops. I have a first obligation to what the audience might notice versus what I might notice.

I've played quintets where euphonium was the requested instrument instead of the tenor trombone, and cornets (or even fleugelhorn) was requested instead of trumpets. That provides a conical concept to the whole work, with contrabass tuba.

The only time I'm tempted to use a contrabass tuba is when playing some kinds of jazz, where the tuba needs real depth. In that role, the sound image is more like "string bass" than "bass trombone". Euphoniums can't do "string bass", either.

Rick "who can play a Bb with more soul" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

There are a couple of tracks on this disc, where you would almost believe you are hearing a tuba, but it is actually a euph.
Of course, who ever heard of any of these guys, anyway

[Lee Stofer]

I did not answer the poll, because none of the answers are necessarily an, "Evil". There are so many different possible scenarios, as Bloke alluded to, that I would not count out anything as a good possibility sometime, somewhere.

I have enjoyed using a really big bass trombone with a really big mouthpiece in a quintet to play the bass part for Renaissance pieces, and the Sabourin arrangement of "Girl with the Flaxen Hair" (try it sometime, really sounds right).

A euphonium has not been my first choice for quintet, but it can be done very convincingly. Yes, I've also gone to a gig with a tuba, trombone and a euphonium in the car, and scoped out the situation before settling on what I'd play. It would be much better to get to play at a decent level on euphonium than to be playing on the edge of "lips not responding" on tuba, or whatever else is necessary to do a good job and have the people want to hire you again.

[BVD Press]

I would vote for neither. These is too much literature out there that would be eliminated by substituting for tuba.. Imagine Bozza on Euph or Arnold on Bass Trombone, etc.

[swillafew]

I think the Empire Brass and the Canadian Brass are two groups that should have shut down the trombone preference, and Mr. Pokorny ought to end the worries about the choosing too large of an instrument. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixvkMetDylw" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank