choice of tuba for Bruckner 4

[rascaljim]

Hello all -

Just trolling to see what other peoples thoughts are about this:

I'm gettin ready to start rehearsing Bruckner 4 with one of the other orchestras that I play in and I'm trying to decide what horn is appropriate. What I've seen on the Bruckner symphony tuba parts are parts written for Bass Tuba for some of the symphonies as well as Contrabass Tuba for other ones. Symphony no 4 is written for Bass Tuba on the part. I am wondering what you all think about using F for this piece?

I did notice that a lot of the licks line up very well for F fingerings, but I have only really seen this piece performed with BATs. I do have a large bore F so I am considering it, but I am not sure how this would affect the performance from a period stand point as well as what Anton had in mind for timbre.

Thanks in advance for your comments as well as any direction you might be able to point me in to continue my research

Jim Langenberg

[jtuba]

I've seen Warren Deck use his 2165 and I've seen Dresden/Sinopoli where the tuba player used a large F. I enjoyed the Dresden blend and balance, and Mr. Deck was pretty impressive to me as well. Bruckner specifies bass tuba, so if I ever played the piece, I would start with an F and see what the conductor/brass section thought.
MOFWIW

[UDELBR]

I've used my big-*** Eb many times on this piece. It works GREAT!

[jmh3412]

Seems to fit well under the fingers for EE flat, stability at the top and enough support for lower register work

[Dylan King]

I've played it on my Yorkbrunner CC with great results.

[tubaman5150]

Bruckner was an organist by trade and much of his orchestration reflects this. Although he obviously liked the brass sound, Bruckner was not IMHO a great orchestrator. Most of his brass writing reflects what he banged out on the organ with brass stops pulled. Because of this, I would use the CC or BBb tuba for the tone color it provides and work through the range issues. An Eb would be my next choice to give the low Bb's in the 4th movement some depth. It is certainly playable on the F tuba, but I just don't feel the sound is quite right.

[Dylan King]

Any tuba will do the job if it's played right.

[kathott]

Hello. I am performing Bruckner lV next week, I can only comment on my personal choice of instrument.
Those players with more than one instrument can afford to experiment a bit. I try not to let the terms bass and contrabass distract me from making a decision regarding an appropriate blend. I think many persons with just one tuba end up making the square peg fit into the round hole - whick is just fine.
On a big piece, I write on my parts which tuba I used for the last go-around. The last time I did Bruckner lV I used an EEb Sovereign. This time I will use a 4/4 Mirafone CC. Both are fine. I have a very large F, but I have to worry too much about the low register, which takes away some of the enjoyment.

[tubaman5150]

Any tuba will do the job if it's played right.

Right on.

[vmi5198]

I try not to let the terms bass and contrabass distract me from making a decision regarding an appropriate blend. On a big piece, I write on my parts which tuba I used for the last go-around. The last time I did Bruckner lV I used an EEb Sovereign. This time I will use a 4/4 Mirafone CC. Both are fine.

Right on Scott!!

[Alex C]

Here's how I would approach it:

If the trombone section is going to play on European trombones and the trumpets are using rotary valve trumpets, then I would choose an F tuba to be appropriate.

On the other hand, if the trombone section is using large bore Bach's and the bass trombonist is using a Fraken-monster with free flowing valves while the trumpets are using large bore American instruments, I'd choose a large CC tuba to match.

Lastly, stability in the upper register should come from good performance habits and not from a smaller tuba. However, if I felt that I would perform below par on the CC, I would play an F tuba (or Eb to those so inclined). Missed notes are a distraction you can't afford to add.

Hope that helps.

[JB]

Summary: Each player should grab whatever they think is the best thing they've got to do the job, and not pay much attention to TubeNet opinions.

Most direct and sensible advice yet.

[rascaljim]

Thank you all for your posts. The posts are definitely covering a vast amount of topics. My question is NOT meant to be a decision based on technical ability, but rather on sound timbre. As all many of you should know the range of the piece starts at pedal C and goes all the way up to the Eb above middle C. This range works for either C or F tubas from a technical standpoint. And actually, if I were to base the decision entirely on ease of playability throughout the range I would choose the C because of the FFF whole notes in the fourth movement in the lower range.

Anyhow... I played my MW2000 for rehearsal on saturday and was very pleased with the sound, I will most likely take my F this coming saturday and then make my decision. My 181 is considered a 5/4 so if there's an F that might work out for my concept of sound for this piece it would be the one.

Can anyone recommend any widely available recordings that have the tubist playing on an F? That might also help because I believe all of my recordings are played on a C.

Keep them posts coming... There's always another perspective out there!

Thanks
Jim Langenberg

PS I named my cat Bruckner... call her Brookie for short... and my fiancee has one called Shostakovich... aka Shosty... good times

[rascaljim]

Ya know... My 181 and 186 fit in the same cases... Heck my dad built me a flight case that fits either almost perfectly. But I will say there is a very noticible difference in the circumference of the tubing throughout the horn compared to the 186. The 181 can also put out a lot more sound before starting to break up. If you ever talk to a certain tubist of the NY Phil he'll tell you that the 186 was not designed to be a fortissimo horn.
Just something I noticed
Jim

[MartyNeilan]

Although I am nowhere near the league of some of the tubists referred to above, I have found that the couple of older (60's-70's) Miraphone 186's I have played handle the FFF's much better than anything from the early 80's on. Ironically, those were the horns with the smaller bells on them, too.
....................
P.S. The first time I played Bruckner 4, It was on a Mirafone 190 BBb 5/4 Kaiser tuba. The high Eb's were not an issue on that BBb horn.

[Tabor]

I've found that my 186 does the job when played extra loud, but it doesn't have the kind of broad timbre that seems to allow an ensemble to float atop it like a highly desirable BAT would.

The 186 snarls, which is it's own aesthetic


Gee Whiz that Mirafone 1291 is nice!
-Tabor

[Matt G]

If you ever talk to a certain tubist of the NY Phil he'll tell you that the 186 was not designed to be a fortissimo horn.

But the 184 was! (Referencing Roger Bobo/L.A. Phil recordings)

I'll agree with Marty one the notion that the older horns with smaller bells (and seemingly lighter gauge brass) seemed to work a little better when pushed all out. I owned an old (seemingly lighter guage than present, early 80's) 188CC and have played a 16"bell 186CC and can tell you that FF and FFF were just fine. It might not be the timbre you're looking for, but the dB was there.

I played a Mirafone 1291 BBb and it was a very nice horn. I am sure that the CC is great, too. From all accounts, the 191 BBb is super also. While they may have a different timbre, I'm not too sure they are able to allow for a higher dB level. Now when dB levels increase, the timbre might differ drastically. I'm sure for the NYPO, that timbre is neither desired nor would it really have the right presence. But for us other folks, the 186 works OK. In fact, I played a 186CC that Dillon's had at the last TUSABTEC that would have blown away a lot of other tubas, rotary/piston/butterfly or laquer/silver/rhodium/amorphous silicon or whatever at pretty much any price.

[rascaljim]

Ok... my teacher gave me the ok to use the F. So it's gonna happen this Sunday, the 6th at 3pm at the Cultural Center in Chicago. Next time I'll probably use my C though.

Jim

[Lew]

...
I don't think anyone here is peekin' down into their next door neighbor's urinal to compare size, but I think some F tubas (along with their players) would do the job quite well indeed for Bruckner IV. ...

OK, there's an image I could have done without!

[Captain Sousie]

Ok... my teacher gave me the ok to use the F. So it's gonna happen this Sunday, the 6th at 3pm at the Cultural Center in Chicago. Next time I'll probably use my C though.

Jim

Good luck. Break a leg and all that jazz