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I am wondering what advantages there might be, in comparison, between the Helicon shape versus the bell forward Sousa and it's cousin, the raincatcher. Who plays a helicon, and why? Or, who has played a helicon and rejected it in favor of a Souzy, and why?

Visually, the helicons look cooler, have a certain rareness factor, but perhaps are more limiting in that the bell aims right at the next fellow's head, unless you turn sideways! I know, helicons are best for playing on horseback.

I have a 1941 King 4p Eb Helicon, which was originally a Sousy, but with a nicely grafted Olds CC tuba bell. When I play it at the County Concert Band, I get to blast out the trombone guys on my left. They don't seem to notice, because they only play at fff at all times anyway.

I am looking lustfully at a 1921 3p BBb York Monster Helicon with 22" bell, although it needs a full valve job (send cluster to Anderson) with plating/honing/truing. Maybe I should be looking for a nice Souzy instead. A good raincatcher is hard to find. They went out of production much earlier, and that upward bell seems to defeat the idea of outdoor marching/street playing.

Thanks for any ideas and opinions you might offer, Walter (who likes Helicons for some stupid reason) of Nevada City, CA

If you like helicons - you're the one who's carrying it, go with what you like. In normal playing (i.e., not the horrible blatting you might hear in a football stadium), my feeling is that there is no real categorical difference - they'll sound similar, within the limits of variation between one sousaphone and the next, or one helicon and the next.

I believe the bells don't hang out as far on Czech helicons (Cerveny or whatever), compared to sousaphone conversions. Bell angle should be similar to a regular front-valve tuba.

Donn wrote:If you like helicons - you're the one who's carrying it, go with what you like. In normal playing (i.e., not the horrible blatting you might hear in a football stadium), my feeling is that there is no real categorical difference - they'll sound similar, within the limits of variation between one sousaphone and the next, or one helicon and the next.

I believe the bells don't hang out as far on Czech helicons (Cerveny or whatever), compared to sousaphone conversions. Bell angle should be similar to a regular front-valve tuba.

I have played european style helicons in polka/German bands - they work well for that (also good for Balkan Brass, but I don't do that style yet.) I don't prefere the rotor valves for jazz playing, but they are good for outdoor concert band. I have played US style (1918 Conn BBb 3 piston) in trad jazz and marching band settings and liked that (except that the longer bell tends to hit things ) I mostly use my 4 valve Conn BBb Sousaphone for jazz gigs now - for New Orleans Brass Band parades, large halls, etc. and a 3/4 or 4/4 tuba (piston) for rehearsals and smaller halls. I do like the Sousaphone a bit better because I can hear my bell sounds a bit easier - the Conn helicon seemed a bit remote to me.

I find that I have to be more careful in parades, with the Conn helicon. You can hit the player standing to your left, if you are not careful!

You're comparing bell positions only, as the body on all three are the same.

I'd go the route of what Dan did with his Frankenhelicon:


He added an extra tenon before the sousaphone collar. If there was a removable bell brace it could, in theory, be a versatile multi-helicon. With a recording bell (bell front sousaphone bell) it would play like any other sousaphone. Remove the recording bell and replace it with an upright bell and you have a suitable instrument (raincatcher) for indoor concerts. Use the same upright bell (with an extra extension to accommodate for the taper), switch out the sousaphone collar and add a longer tuning slide or gooseneck (a la bloke) for when you want to use a helicon.

It's a very good idea, one that I've looked into for my own use.[/quote]

Interesting! If that double elbow was shaped just right maybe it could be used like the Sottsaphone?

The smaller bells on Helicons make them sound 'farty' outdoors, imo. Sousaphones sound better outdoors. imo.

I like a helicon with a short bell best because the balance is better than a sousa. ... and less prone to problems from wind.

Also... if you are on horseback (as the cavalry was)... with a helicon, you are less likely to be knocked off your horse by the bell striking trees!

I guess my marching has been done under less than ideal conditions. I have hit stuff like street signs more than a couple times, it isn't fun. I've also played in rooms with ceilings too low to stand up. That's with the sousaphone. I've bumped one or two people with the helicon, but nothing serious that I can recall. (But as I said, I think my helicon's bell doesn't hang out quite as far as some.)

But, can we speak frankly, the thing is, sousaphones look a little dorky, compared to a helicon. If you're playing in the dark, bring whatever sounds the best.

Interesting discussion! Funny how a Helicon bell of 22" might be considered small. Well, compared to a Souzy bell of 26" or more, yes, but in terms of being a tuba it is still huge! I can testify to the dangers of walking around with a helicon. Going thru doorways is always a challenge.

Lionel Batiste of the Treme neighborhood just had a funeral and second line (it's on YouTube now), and I see gangs of sousaphones navigating the crowds with no problem because their bells are way up in the air. A helicon would probably get beat up in a tight crowd.

I kind of like the shorter wrap of my 1919 Martin helicon. The bell doesn't stick out too far and hits things (very often that is). Plus if I turn the gooseneck to the right and let the bits curve back to the left, the bell points to the left. If I turn the gooseneck to the left and let bits curve back to the right then the bell point almost straight forward.

TubaTinker wrote:
Also... if you are on horseback (as the cavalry was)... with a helicon, you are less likely to be knocked off your horse by the bell striking trees!

Less likely being the operative words!

A few years ago The Great Circus Parade moved from downtown Milwaukee up to Baraboo, WI where the circus world museum is ( and all the circus wagons are) in order to save money since the major sponsor and the state had hit hard times and withdrew the funding. Well I didn't have to worry about trees in Milwaukee. So in Baraboo we are 12-15 up in the air perched on top of a packed original circus wagon pulled by a whole lot of draft horses. We come around the corner and boom a large tree branch right in the bell. Nearly tears the helicon out of my hands and me overboard. 85 year old bass drummer grabs me by the collar and yanks me back in - branch pops out - and I spend the rest of the parade ducking branches.

Those parades were so much fun - it's a shame they are no more. In Milwaukee they drew tremendous crowds. Merle Evans came up every year until he passed away. Ernest Borgnine always came as well walking the streets as a clown.

Walter Webb wrote:I am wondering what advantages there might be, in comparison, between the Helicon shape versus the bell forward Sousa and it's cousin, the raincatcher. Who plays a helicon, and why? Or, who has played a helicon and rejected it in favor of a Souzy, and why?

Visually, the helicons look cooler, have a certain rareness factor, but perhaps are more limiting in that the bell aims right at the next fellow's head, unless you turn sideways! I know, helicons are best for playing on horseback.

It depends on the music/type of venue/type (and size) of group/travel requirements etc. It's nice to have the exact tool for the job if you're a carpenter, but that doesn't mean you can't use other tools to get the job done -the same for music. I've got both helicons (Conn 1918 30K and a Buescher) and a couple nice sousaphones ('31 Cleveland King with a 24" bell) and a Fiberglass Conn 36K at my disposal. For stand up small group jazz the helicon offers a big fat sound and ease of playing as it is much lighter and easier to balance. I use it much like the late Allen Jaffe used his with The Preservation Hall Jazz Band. I can get behind soloists, or bounce the sound off different walls or get out front and solo with it. I think because there is one less bend you get more of a tuba sound with a helicon. For traveling on busses/trains etc. it is hard to beat a sousaphone. The 36k at roughly 16 pounds is much easier on the body for a three hour gig than a brass sousaphone. The brass King offers a more focused -less woofy sound without the flat middle C that it seems all Conn Helicons/Sousaphones suffer from. It also has all tuning slides accessible via the left hand. A lot of excellent traditional jazz players were/are helicon users - Rich Matteson/Allen Jaffe/Tom Holtz/Art Hovey/Joe S. etc. If helicons were more plentiful you might see even more. Banda groups seem to prefer the sousaphone and sometimes use two even in a small group. Funk/fusion groups like the Dirty Dozen seem to prefer sousaphones. That maybe the result of the extensive travel they do and relative plentifulness of sousaphones.

Donn wrote:I guess my marching has been done under less than ideal conditions. I have hit stuff like street signs more than a couple times, it isn't fun. I've also played in rooms with ceilings too low to stand up. That's with the sousaphone. I've bumped one or two people with the helicon, but nothing serious that I can recall. (But as I said, I think my helicon's bell doesn't hang out quite as far as some.)

But, can we speak frankly, the thing is, sousaphones look a little dorky, compared to a helicon. If you're playing in the dark, bring whatever sounds the best.

I kinda like the Sousaphone look - seeing them at Honk! Fests wandering through the streets of Boston; or doing flash moves in college football games - works for me... However, I have killed a few light bulbs in my time - marching into Vesuvio's for example - what a target!

tofu wrote:.... A few years ago The Great Circus Parade moved from downtown Milwaukee up to Baraboo.....

Are you a 'Windjammer'? Were you at Bradenton/Sarasota this past January? We had a great meet at Gettysburgh last week. 156 piece band with 17 tubas!

There is a plan in the making for a meet including a circus parade in Springfield, Mass in a couple of years. It's my goal to find a way to play with the parade band in Peru, IN one of these days.

Would that have been 'Doug' who dragged you back up into the wagon? I think Doug is 92 this year and still going strong as our bass drummer and 'musical guidance technician'.

Helicons definitely play and sound very similar to a tuba. Sousaphones do have the extra bend right at the end of the bell and also usually have a huge bell flair, the sound is more distorted and quite a bit less focused. Where a tuba or helicon can project and articulate the sousa can merely ooomph and support at a wider level, unless of course you decide to unleash the demonic blatt.

Sousaphones can sound very nice, but only in the hands of a really good player.

I've noticed that the bell section on many/most helicons can't be removed while most/all sousaphone bells can come off. The sousaphone bell can be put inside the hoop and then put in a case to protect everything. This cannot be done with helicons so would make them a little more ungainly for transport.

KiltieTuba wrote: No. ....I'm not sure what sousaphone you have been playing on, but in the rest of the world there is no difference between how a helicon, tuba, raincatcher, or sousaphone sounds....

Sure! EVERYONE knows a sousaphone only goes BLATT!!!

Of course there are many types of sousa and helicon.

They do have quite different sounds though, that suit certain things.

I've always thought of the helicon as a wrap around tuba.

I've played jazz on the helicon and Balkan music on the sousa and it works fine. If you really want to capture the sound of those Balkan brass bands, a rotary helicon (or the right kind of big rotary tuba) is the right tool to get those sounds (if that's what you're after ...).

Hello Walter, I think I'm the person who sold that King 4 valve helicon to you. I was just listening to a recording of my son, Noah (not Austin) playing the first part of Bydo on it. Here is a link to the recording I made of him when he was just 16 years old.
http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=1035253&t=4578

I hope you are enjoying the helicon.

Mark Howle
Oxford, MS

KiltieTuba wrote:

fairweathertuba wrote:Helicons definitely play and sound very similar to a tuba. Sousaphones do have the extra bend right at the end of the bell and also usually have a huge bell flair, the sound is more distorted and quite a bit less focused. Where a tuba or helicon can project and articulate the sousa can merely ooomph and support at a wider level, unless of course you decide to unleash the demonic blatt.

Sousaphones can sound very nice, but only in the hands of a really good player.

No.

I'm not sure what sousaphone you have been playing on, but in the rest of the world there is no difference between how a helicon, tuba, raincatcher, or sousaphone sounds.
I've heard plenty of people sound much better on a sousaphone than on a tuba.

I think standing while playing helps get the air moving a bit better, it's also easier to get the correct MP placement with a helicon or sousaphone. Getting a tuba adjusted for individual players takes a bit more work, I've a long torso so I find most tubas need a stand or a phone book or something to get them to the proper height, for me this is why helicon or sousa phone is easier to play. I've played a lot of different sousaphones mostly Kings and Conns, some of them were even in really good condition, but I've never played a sousaphone that I thought played comparable to the way a tuba or helicon plays. The smaller belled sousaphones play the closest, (and best) to a tuba IMO.

Try as I might, it's hard to get a decent BLATT out of my helicon but hand over a sousaphone including large bore ones and I'll find the BLAATTTT in a nanosecond.