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I probably should've done some research on this beforehand, but i'm already starting this thread so might as well..

On a CC tuba, is it necessary to have five valves? what are the advantages? What if you have one of those BATs with only four valves? If so many CC tubas are made with five valves today, does that mean that the four valve beauties from the olden days are no outdated and rendered useless?

I played on a five valve BBb, which in all honesty, was somewhat pointless. I only used the fifth valve for kicks and giggles but it never tuned well for any alternate fingerings or pedal notes.

I can imagine, and after playing a five valve CC, that because of the pitch difference, a fifth valve could help you get down to those pedal tones

DudelookingfortheCC wrote:I probably should've done some research on this beforehand, but i'm already starting this thread so might as well..

On a CC tuba, is it necessary to have five valves? what are the advantages? What if you have one of those BATs with only four valves? If so many CC tubas are made with five valves today, does that mean that the four valve beauties from the olden days are no outdated and rendered useless?

I played on a five valve BBb, which in all honesty, was somewhat pointless. I only used the fifth valve for kicks and giggles but it never tuned well for any alternate fingerings or pedal notes.

I can imagine, and after playing a five valve CC, that because of the pitch difference, a fifth valve could help you get down to those pedal tones

No, it's not necessary to have 5 valves, if you don't mind a lot of pulling in the lowest register, and using false tones for a couple of the near-pedal pitches. But the low F, and the ability to choose alternate fingerings on the fly for different intonation requirements, and yes, to fill in the gaps to get down to pedal CC (which is really more of an issue with 3-valve instruments), are all together what have made the current conventional 5-valve CC configuration the standard contrabass tuba.

I agree on BBb, for concert band usage, where 99%+ of the literature has only low F as the lowest common note (yes, I've played lower, and the literature is out there, but only rarely). On my tuba, low Eb is 1+2+4, with a little bit of acceleration of the air to raise the pitch, D 2+3+4 is spot on, and, well, at that point some serious pulling is in order to go lower, which just doesn't happen with the repertoire I play.

If I were in Germany playing BBb in an orchestra, then the 5-valve BBb would be a serious consideration, maybe a good 5/4 Rudy.

Dude, buy the Holton

4 valves is fine, you just might do some slide pulling in the low register. If the slides are easy to reach and it's a good playing tuba, I wouldn't be too concerned.

DudelookingfortheCC wrote:
On a CC tuba, is it necessary to have five valves? what are the advantages? What if you have one of those [tubas] with only four valves? If so many CC tubas are made with five valves today, does that mean that the four valve beauties from the olden days are outdated and rendered useless?

No, it's not "necessary" to have 5 valves. Chuck Daellenbach manages just fine in the Canadian Brass on a 4 valve CC. The Elephant (Wade) played a 4 valve Alexander 163 in the Mississippi Symphony for something like 12 or 15 years. I'm not absolutely sure, but I believe his current Holton 345 is a 4 valve, too.

I've had two 4 valve CC tubas, one Rudy Meinl 5/4 and (currently) an Alexander 163. I manage just fine doing all of my contra tuba playing on a 4 valve CC. Both the Rudy and the Alexander are very open tubas anyway, so it's hard to comment on if the lack of a 5th makes the instrument even more open, but it stands to reason that it would. You decide if that's a good thing or bad thing.

I've also had two 4p+1 CC tubas (ie 5 valvers). They were fine. All of the instruments themselves were so different that I can't really compare the 4 valves I've had vs. the 5 valves I've had.

With a 5 valve you have more fingering options. It's as simple as that. The 5th valve is not an automatic low register button. At the same time, having 4 valves (in my opinion) is not a handicap. I can play all of the same notes on my 4 valve tubas that I could play on my 5 valve tubas.

Now, on a bass tuba (F tuba in particular), I'd consider the 5th valve a "must have." I like to have it available for low register access, but do also use it for some higher or in the staff alternates when the mood strikes. I can't really comment on Eb tubas, never had one or put much time in with them.

The great tubas of the 4 valve era are still great tubas today, they've simply take a back seat to the 5 valvers developed during the great arms race of the last decade or two. If you find a good 4 valve tuba, be open minded.

EDIT: One of the latest trends in major orchestras is for playing some of the "big" pieces (Wagner, Prokofiev) on a BBb tuba, especially the Fafner. The principal tubist in the orchestra I work for has a Fafner he uses for such things. It's a 4 valve. He does just fine.

It's my opinion that the need for a fifth valve is to improve intonation and has little to do with 'playing low'.

With that in mind.... (again... just my opinion) is that since CC tubas seem to be the choice of modern professionals... intonation means more to them than us novices who honk around in community bands.

I have a flat-step rotor on my Miraphone 1291 and the ONLY thing I use if for (when I remember it) is for intonation on a low Eb in some upper-level brass band material. Frankly... I would have more use for a 2-3 combination on that horn.

I haven't got much more to add other than the fact that I owned a 4-valve Miraphone 186 built in the mid-70's and got along just fine. As has been said, I just had to do some pulling with the fourth valve for lower stuff. I loved the low D on that thing (1+2+3+4 pull 1 and 4).

Tubajug wrote:I loved the low D on that thing (1+2+3+4 pull 1 and 4).

How the heck do you pull that off on a 186? The 4th slide is on the back of the tuba and the 1st is in the front right? Maybe I'm mixing something up but I think that's how my Miraphone is set up and unless you have a third arm, I don't see that quite possible.

Just a joke... but seriously, how the heck do you do it?

I've owned a spectacular 4 valve Alexander 163 CC, and currently own and very much enjoy a Miraphone 184-4U CC. It has no lackings, save a lack of a Db. Oh darn

I pull 3 for low D... it's a pretty damn long slide! Low F is spot on 124. It's a shame it's not big enough for some literature... it's a fantastic instrument.

Let's look at what you are going to be called on to do as part of your decision.

On a BBb you will probably never have to play the pedal B natural, so 4 valves will get the job done.
On a CC you will, from time to time, have to play the pedal Db. Just make sure you can do it comfortably on the horn you wind up liking the most, whether it's a 4 valve or a 5 valve.

My 4 valve piggy CC served me just fine for quite a number of years, but my 5 valve CC's do make some things a bit easier.
In brass band I have had to play a lot in the pedal register so I have a 5 valve horn. You could do it on 4 valves, but having the 5th saves a lot of fussing with the horn getting it set to play some of the low stuff I have encountered.

Just my thoughts.

Roger