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We performed a concert tonight to honor our first responders. After the concert I was approached by a fellow who identified himself as the Fire Marshall. He asked to see our permit. The concert was over so it was sort of a moot point. I was not aware that I needed an 'amusement and entertainment permit' to perform a free public concert in front of the local town hall.

No stage... no lighting... no fancy electrical equipment... no canopy. Just forty or so musicians sitting in folding chairs at ground level with battery-operated stand lights.

Indiana has enacted all sorts of goofy rules and regulations in light of the state collapse in Indianapolis a few months back. The new rules are here: http://www.in.gov/dhs/2795.htm
I just had no idea that I needed a permit from the State of Indiana. Could this be an end to free public community band concerts in Indiana?

Dan Schultz, president
The Old Dam Community Band
http://www.olddamband.com" target="_blank

That's ridiculous. The application is insanely burdensome. I'd be talking to my state legislators.

I really hope that the fire department would know the layout of a sidewalk in front of their building. And appreciate a free concert in their honor. Yikes, that is a lot of paperwork for something simple...

That is a very unfortunate outcome from that state fair event. I'll mention this to some friends in Indy, they can be fairly vocal about inane legislation!

I wonder if the paperwork can be expedited (or at least simplified) if you are performing on public property? It's not like you're planning a performance in some dimly lit basement club with no emergency exit...

Having lived in litigious east-coast cities my entire life, it sounds like an unfortunate "welcome to the club" is in order...

Dan-
It might be some sort of a waiver of sorts should say an audience member or band member tripped 'on a banana peel' fell, and broke their leg and wanted 'damages' for their flop...however doing a 9-11 Benefit and having this thrown in your face is rather amazing to me--no matter what the reason is for such a 'permit'. .. mark

bearphonium wrote: really hope that the fire department would know the layout of a sidewalk in front of their building. And appreciate a free concert in their honor.

jonesmj wrote:Dan-
It might be some sort of a waiver of sorts should say an audience member or band member tripped 'on a banana peel' fell, and broke their leg and wanted 'damages' for their flop...however doing a 9-11 Benefit and having this thrown in your face is rather amazing to me--no matter what the reason is for such a 'permit'. .. mark

The fact that the fire marshall waited until AFTER the concert to broach the question of the permit when he very well could have (and, strictly speaking, SHOULD have) prohibited the concert from taking place at all, suggests that he did, in fact, appreciate the gesture on the part of the band. Given that, I'm inclined to see it as more of a friendly warning/reminder regarding future concerts.

pgym wrote:

bearphonium wrote: really hope that the fire department would know the layout of a sidewalk in front of their building. And appreciate a free concert in their honor.

jonesmj wrote:Dan-
It might be some sort of a waiver of sorts should say an audience member or band member tripped 'on a banana peel' fell, and broke their leg and wanted 'damages' for their flop...however doing a 9-11 Benefit and having this thrown in your face is rather amazing to me--no matter what the reason is for such a 'permit'. .. mark

The fact that the fire marshal waited until AFTER the concert to broach the question of the permit when he very well could have (and, strictly speaking, SHOULD have) prohibited the concert from taking place at all, suggests that he did, in fact, appreciate the gesture on the part of the band. Given that, I'm inclined to see it as more of a friendly warning/reminder regarding future concerts.

On the contrary. He simply showed up AFTER the event was over and we we're loading our percussion equipment back into the trailer.

This whole thing is just an 'over the top' example of legislation that was produced as a 'knee-jerk' reaction to the stage collapse in Indianapolis. It's clearly time for every community band musician in Indiana to contact their legislators. By the letter of the law... outdoor concerts in virtually all public and private places have to have a permit. My Dixieland band playing at a nursing home would have to have a permit. Heck... I suppose I would have to seek a permit for some oom-pah music at a private pool party at my house!

Just another classic example of 'government gone nuts'! I suppose things will settle down a bit once everyone gets over the initial shock of it all. I expect there will be such a thing as 'blanket permits' for community groups once legislators come to their senses.

Or... don't invite the fire marshal next time.

(But really, what a load of crap. Probably good intentions behind the law, but there need to be some restrictions. A 40-piece band in a public park is NOT why that law was made.)

TubaTinker wrote:On the contrary. He simply showed up AFTER the event was over and we we're loading our percussion equipment back into the trailer.

With all due respect, to me, the fact that he bothered to show up at all indicates that he was aware that the event was scheduled; and the fact that he waited until the event was over to "show up" and inquire about the permit rather than "showing up" before or during the event and shutting it down for lack of the permit (as well as the fact that he did not fine you for not having the required permit) suggests a judicious exercise of discretion on the part of the fire marshall in regard to the timing of the inquiry.

This whole thing is just an 'over the top' example of legislation that was produced as a 'knee-jerk' reaction to the stage collapse in Indianapolis.

Actually, the permit requirement appears in the 2008 edition of the Indiana Code, and the approval date that appears on the Application for Amusement Entertainment Permit form is 2010, so it can hardly be a knee-jerk reaction produced in response to an event that occurred in 2011; rather, it's an example of stepped-up enforcement of a law that had previously been only sporadically enforced.

Oh ... and Indiana Code 22-12-6-7: Permit application fee and inspection fee states:

(a) This section does not apply to a nonpublic school (as defined in IC 20-18-2-12) or a school operated by a school corporation (as defined in IC 20-18-2-16).
(b) The division of fire and building safety shall charge an application fee set by rules adopted by the commission under IC 4-22-2 for amusement and entertainment permits issued under IC 22-14-3.
(c) The division of fire and building safety shall collect an inspection fee set by rules adopted by the commission under IC 4-22-2 whenever the division conducts an inspection for a special event endorsement under IC 22-14-3.
(d) Halls, gymnasiums, or places of assembly in which contests, drills, exhibitions, plays, displays, dances, concerts, or other types of amusement are held by colleges, universities, social or fraternal organizations, lodges, farmers organizations, societies, labor unions, trade associations, or churches are exempt from the fees charged or collected under subsections (b) and (c), unless rental fees are charged or collected. [NB: emphasis mine]
(e) The fees set for applications or inspections under this section must be sufficient to pay all the direct and indirect costs of processing an application or performing an inspection for which the fee is set. In setting the fees, the commission may consider differences in the degree or complexity of the activity being performed for each fee.

Also, from the IDHS Application For Amusement & Entertainment Permit webpage:

It is extremely important that the owner of the property or the operator of the event applies for the amusement entertainment permit well in advance of the first planned event, so that the necessary life safety inspections of the venue can be performed to protect public safety,

so if the municipality/county/state is planning to host events at a venue it owns, it would not be unreasonable to expect them to already have obtained the required permit for that venue.

pgym wrote:

TubaTinker wrote:On the contrary. He simply showed up AFTER the event was over and we we're loading our percussion equipment back into the trailer.

With all due respect, to me, the fact that he bothered to show up at all indicates that he was aware that the event was scheduled; and the fact that he waited until the event was over to "show up" and inquire about the permit rather than "showing up" before or during the event and shutting it down for lack of the permit (as well as the fact that he did not fine you for not having the required permit) suggests a judicious exercise of discretion on the part of the fire marshall in regard to the timing of the inquiry.

You miss-interpreted what I said. The guy showed up LATE and was pissed because he missed an opportunity to be a real jerk.

Maybe I should have said "the sudden enforcement of relatively new legislation is a 'knee-jerk' response to recent events". No one but an attorney seems to know what the rules mean. I guess that's what we get for electing attorneys to make the rules!

Ah yes - it's getting wacky out there with regulations...

My band has been around for a 153 years. Every year for the last 153 years a couple weeks before the Memorial Day parade, we go out and practice marching. Usually 8 blocks - stop eat pizza at a members house and march back to our performance center. Route is through residential streets and by a small private elementary school and a small private University. No real traffic and people along the route come out and seem to enjoy the racket going by.

A few years ago a squad roars up behind me - hits the lights/siren - goes through the band - I assume on the way to a call. Wrong - cop says we need a "parade permit" and arrests the drum major and hauls him down to the station.

So now in order to do our annual 8 block practice march - we have to alert the cops and have a squad with lights on in front of us and one with lights on behind us.

Meanwhile... neighborhoods go unprotected while the municipal band practices marching - has some pizza/beer and then tries to march back with squads front and back protecting the citizens - apparently from their own band!

TubaTinker wrote:You miss-interpreted what I said. The guy showed up LATE and was pissed because he missed an opportunity to be a real jerk.

Since you left that out of your previous rants, I read it the same way as Pgym. Kind of hard to interpret correctly when vital information is left out of the account.

TubaTinker wrote:Maybe I should have said "the sudden enforcement of relatively new legislation is a 'knee-jerk' response to recent events".

As Paul Dee (late chairman of the NCAA committee on infractions) said, "High profile players demand high profile compliance."

As a general contractor, I deal with various code enforcement officials on a daily basis. Occasionally, I run across a real jerk, but for the most part they're pretty easygoing when it comes to trivial, technical violations, provided that they don't compromise the integrity of the structure or the safety of the users/occupants.

A high profile failure anywhere in the country, like the Indianapolis stage collapse, is practically guaranteed to turn even the most easygoing inspector into a Rulz Nazi, because they know that every d!ckweed local TV and newspaper "investigative reporter" will be out there looking to cook up an "IT COULD HAPPEN HERE!!!!" story and accusing them of indifference toward public safety and calling for their heads over even the most trivial compliance oversights.

derrenba wrote: A high profile failure anywhere in the country, like the Indianapolis stage collapse, is practically guaranteed to turn even the most easygoing inspector into a Rulz Nazi, because they know that every d!ckweed local TV and newspaper "investigative reporter" will be out there looking to cook up an "IT COULD HAPPEN HERE!!!!" story and accusing them of indifference toward public safety and calling for their heads over even the most trivial compliance oversights.

Right, and this mortal fear of splashy accidents is our doing in the end, since we're audience that tunes in to the TV coverage and gets sucked into the furor. Elected government isn't likely to turn out a great deal wiser than the electorate.