TubeNet

Since we know the date of the original patent, and the place and patent-holder, and that it was a tuba in F...

When did someone make a longer tuba? When did the BBb, CC, Eb tuba come into existence?

I don't have the source near me... but I believe that Cerveny created the first CC tuba. Don't remember the others. Now where did I put that book?

I also think Harvey Phillips discusses when various keys came about, although I have no idea if he said who made them, in Art of Tuba

goodgigs wrote:An I up for an honorable mention here ?

Clearly you are.

eupher61 wrote:Since we know the date of the original patent, and the place and patent-holder, and that it was a tuba in F...

When did someone make a longer tuba? When did the BBb, CC, Eb tuba come into existence?

Cerveny seemed to be following the Wieprecht plan, with rotary valves. I think his C tuba dates from the middle 1840's, or thereabouts. I suspect he was responding to the burgeoning market in Germany (Prussia, Austria, etc.) for Wieprecht-style instrument system. Wieprecht had himself been appointed head of the Prussian Guard bands by the late 1830's, and his bands of that period consisted of four-six bass tubas (presumably in F, at least at first). But there is some mention of contrabass tubas in Bb from that period, not just the one in C made by Cerveny.

Sax developed his plan for instruments in maybe 1843, as part of his desire to overhaul French military bands (which, as late as 1845, called for a serpent or ophicleide). The Eb and Bb bass saxhorns were part of that plan, but perhaps did not come into real production until the later 1840's or early 1850's. That plan definitely included a contrabass saxhorn in Bb.

I think it would be hard to determine whether C or Bb contrabass tubas came first, but both seem to have emerged within a decade or so after Wieprect's invention.

Rick "reading from Grove's Dictionary of Music and Musicians, published 1889, at Google Books" Denney

Time to pull out my copy of the Bevan and bone back up!

I'm curious if anyone can offer real world insights into the perceived issues with some of the older valve designs that faded from use.

In particular, I'm curious what made the 'Berliner Pumpen' so problematic. Was it technical manufacturing issues that today wouldn't be so problematic or was it a fundamental problem of design?

Googling about suggests that the reason the modern 'Perinet' design won out is that it featured less sharp bends. The BP introduced two sharp turns when engaged. I can't help but think that a creative routing system could be developed that would correct for that issue.

The other 'problem' might have been the large diameter which might have posed ergonomic issues. I would imagine that someone with a lot of initiative could develop an improved BP, rotate them 90 degrees and attach them to rotary valve style linkage system(thus freeing up the design to optimize the routing of plumbing). Maybe that would work out terribly too.. What do I know? Nothing.. that's what.

Has all of this been done before? Based on the huge variety of designs that floated about in the early 19th century I can't help but think it's been done. Vienna valves aren't that far off from what I'm proposing.

joh_tuba wrote:In particular, I'm curious what made the 'Berliner Pumpen' so problematic. Was it technical manufacturing issues that today wouldn't be so problematic or was it a fundamental problem of design?

The rotary valve is actually the natural evolution of the Berlinerpumpen. The Berlinerpumpen is identical to two rotary valves turned at 90 degrees and stacked, with the actuation moving the stack up and down. Cerveny evidently had the idea that it would be easier to turn a single shape 90 degrees than to move at stack of two up and down--the valve is nominally half the weight (and rotating it requires even less work) and the linkage could be designed for the convenience of the user without compromising the convenience of the maker.

I doubt there was a problem with design, just that it wasn't the best way to achieve the same outcome and it waited on someone to think of a better idea.

We've had a lot of time to think about it since, without any real subsequent breakthroughs.

I can think of things to (slightly) improve Perinet-valve action, and rotary valve action, but both would require far more mechnical complexity and cost.

Rick "thinking that Baadsvik and Sheridan demonstrate to me the adequacy of current designs compared to my skills in applying them" Denney

I can put in a little light...

I spent an extended period studying early tubas and bombardons at the National Museum recently. These instruments are the pioneering works of makers who were really working from nothing, with all the freedom and failure that implies!

Berlin valves are indeed as acoustically sound as any rotary valve. However, they suffer from two problems - ergonomy and wear. Wear, in that the very short piston, regardless of how well manufactured, will not remain true in the cylinder for very long; the irregular path of the finger in pressing it down wears at it rather quickly. Don't misunderstand: it's a very durable device, and made to modern dimensions, they may do quite well and be made in a smaller diameter than earlier versions...

The second problem, though, is indeed ergonomy. Some of the earliest instruments have valves whose diameter barely allows all 3 fingers to reach three inline cylinders. Sax and others addressed this a little with an offset second valve which brought the other two closer, but some examples survive in terrific condition because they were basically impossible to play! Using modern construction and design, a smaller diameter than many historic examples would be achievable, but there would really be no point in the experiment; Perinets do a far better job (imagine trying to reach 4 Berlins with a .787 bore!).

I'll reiterate; there was absolutely nothing mechanically or acoustically wrong with the Berlin Cylinders... but they were replaced with accoustically equivalent and slightly superior alternatives.

J.c.S. (with a Saxhorn Contrabasse in his shop with ovoid ports in the Berlin Valves allowing and angled entry and exit of the valve tubing - brilliant!)