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I would suggest doing a search for this topic.... you are bound to get hundreds of opinions ..... there are many fine schools out there. also take into account what you are going for performance vs. education

When my son was applying to colleges, we met with professors and had private lessons during his junior year of high school. He then selected those schools that he wanted to apply to. It was only at his audition at a very large state school that was out of state did we discover that the studio was only taking one freshman student that year! Studio circumstances change year to year. There's no guarantee that there will be a large number of openings even in the largest state schools. It never hurts to ask how many incoming freshman slots there will be before you shell out the money for travel etc.

Good luck!

I won't recommend my school as it took me 3 to graduate, and 1 grad school so far, but, I make my living playing, which is what my comments will address. Again, please take my comments as Arnold Gottlieb's facts, people always disagree with me, I wouldn't have it any other way.
If you are interested in living in a major (or minor for that matter) city and freelancing (which may be in addition to teaching public school, private school, or not), I would recommend going to school in or very near that city. The music scene is hard to break in no matter where you go, but if you go to school where you want to live you will have a 4 year head start on people who just move to town after college, and you will have a 4 year relationship with your teacher(s) and collegues which cannot be overlooked, you'll play gigs with some of them forever. You'll play plenty of exciting gigs in school that you will later refer to as "small change gigs", however they will be training for your future, and, if you do it in the city you will live in they will also be "networking".
If you think you can make a living freelancing, I think you need to play bass trombone or electric bass or acoustic bass and maybe all of them. In the past year (2004) I've played gigs on the two basses and tuba, my bass trombone playing stinks, but I'm working on it, my bass playing is pretty good. I think many people would be surprised at the amount of working bass or bass trombone players who would say they are tuba players (in fact you're reading the ravings of one now). I would also become really familiar with music technology, and remember it's called the music buisness, not the music fun, learn something about buisness so you can work in your own best interest.
I admire and applaud the dedication and love the fathers in this post have shown for their children, I am not disagreeing with any of them, I'm trying to add and relate my own experience in addition to their more scholastic approach. I would like to add that to me, the most important thing about any school is the dedication a student brings to it. No matter where you go, your success will depend on you. Peace. ASG

Do not go to college unless you are in need of a good mind wash.

If money is a big factor, you might look into the University of Wyoming in Laramie, WY. It is a podunk school but the music dept is really good. For more info on the current tuba/euph studio and low brass scholarships, email Dr. Robert Belser at belserrs@uwyo.edu

Also think about the University of Northern Colorado in Greeley, CO. It smells like a feed lot but the music dept is top rate. Sorry but I don't have any contact info.

Happy hunting,
David Martin

tubad wrote:Whether you get into the top studio or not is the real measure there. You could get into an Indiana and be studying with a graduate student, not with Dan Perantoni.

Just have a look at Mr. Perantoni's results. He teaches ALL his top students. Non-majors and the like might end up with a grad student, but the serious ones who work hard get top notch teaching and are surrounded by some of the best students of our instrument in the country.

That studio is VERY competitive to get into and VERY competitive to study and grow in. Mr. P gets results, period. It is difficult for someone who is willing to put in the practice hours and follow his directions exactly to fail.

If you are more interested in studying with a good teacher and having a happy go lucky time in college then there are MANY choices. If your primary goal is to get a job playing then study with a teacher who produces results. Mr. P is not the only teacher who produces winners, but he is among the elite in his success rate.

You gotta agree with Sean on that........
I've only heard the stories about Mr. P from Mr. T but it sounds like a great enviroment.
Too much typing, too little practicing.........Peace. ASG

No one has mentioned Tennessee Tech - Dr. Winston Morris. The guy is legendary (one of the pioneers of the tuba/euphonium ensemble). Definitely check TTU out. Tuition in the state of TN for state schools is pretty cheap, out-of-state might not be horrible. A very good tuba school that a lot of people overlook.

If location bears into your equation, Cookeville is in the Cumberland Mountains, a nice part of the state (central TN).

I am currently attending the University of Central Arkansas. I really like their music program and faculty (and especially the price!). The tuba professor is Dr. Louis Young and he's the main reason why I chose UCA over the University of Arkansas. Dr. Young is by far the best tuba professor in the state and one of the best in the region. If you're interested in Music Education, UCA has the very best education department in the state and many employers hire UCA grads over other grads b/c of their education dept. I hope that helps you out.

The reason he told me that he keeps a small studio is because Rice only has 2 orchestras and with a larger studio the students would get less performing experience

This is exactly the case at Rice, although there is not a higher and a lower orchestra as Fortissimosca mentioned (Hi, Gabe!). Rice has Symphony Orchestra and a Chamber Orchestra. Since the Chamber Orchestra rarely has a tuba part (I only played in it once during a two year period), all the tubists have to rotate through the Symphony Orchestra . . . thus the primary reason that Dave Kirk tries to keep the studio to 2 students.

As far as the push for graduate students over undergraduate students, the whole school was primarily a graduate program while I was there from 2000-2002. In fact, I only remember 5 undergraduates in the entire brass program during my study at Rice, one being a tubist who's graduating this year. (From what I've heard, the new dean at the school is wanting to accept more undergrads now. . . again, this is just what I've heard)

Also, just so there is someone to stick up for Dave, I must say that I play the way I do today because of him. He is an amazing musician, a wonderful person, and an excellent teacher. The man has had a profound influence on my life, career, and I consider him a wonderful mentor and a dear friend.

Steve Lamb
U.S. Coast Guard Band[/quote]

tubad wrote:My only point was not to criticize Indiana, but to suggest that a tuba student might be admitted to Indiana U, perhaps as a music education major, but not be admitted to Mr P's studio. Lots of places are pretty clear that the music education majors do not get the top teachers, unless they're <i>really</i> good (enough to be a performance major) or there's plenty of room in the studio.

As I said before, if you dedicate yourself and show hearty results in lessons with him then he will also dedicate his teaching talents to you. Perhaps he works differently with various people, but for the year or so I studied with him he worked just as hard for me in lessons as I worked for him in the practice room. If I did not follow his directions or did not put in the time needed to nearly perfect an assigned task then he would also slouch my lesson. I might add deservedly. On the other hand if I really hit the tuba hard that week and found something special he would make extra time during the week for me.

Mr. P is a powerful HONEST leader. He takes zero BS and gives zero BS. If someone is not interested in working hard enough to achieve world class standards than there are other places to study. This is true, I am certain, of a few other teachers as well, but Perantoni kicked my ***.

tubad wrote:Sean, your post makes my point: only the most dedicated and talented students will end up with, and benefit from, the tremendous effort put in by a world class teacher. There is a world of difference between the average prospective freshman instrumental peformance major and the few, the very few, who have done the work, and are prepared to do the work, to achieve world class standards. As you say

Mr. P is a powerful HONEST leader. He takes zero BS and gives zero BS. If someone is not interested in working hard enough to achieve world class standards than there are other places to study.

Exactly. There is nothing wrong with the character of an individual who wants to study tuba or euphonium at a level which will most likely not lead to a performance career. There are thousands of students right now doing just that on dozens of instruments in hundreds of colleges around this country. Studying music teaches one skills which are directly applicable to a whole host of professional fields.

If someone has other aspirations beyond college than the sacrifices required to succeed at some of the top music schools may not be worthwhile.

tubad wrote:Those students, if they now realize they really, really want to play tuba (or any other instrument) for a living, they need to spend their undergraduate years (or a portion of them) working to bring themselves to a level that will permit them to undertake graduate studies with a top teacher.

IMO, that is too late. Most of the truly successful musicians I know were ready before they finished their undergrad degree. Grad school is, for many, a second chance or an extension.

tubad wrote:I've heard college tuba "performance majors" whose skills -- to my ears -- were not equal to the high school tuba players in the youth orchestras in which my daughters have played. I wonder, in those cases, if the students aren't hearing what their teachers are telling them, or if they are not being well-advised.

Your ears are most likely hearing the same things many of us hear at some of the various tuba/euph conferences held throughout. There are plenty of half baked professors who get jobs teaching because they completed a Doctorate and were passable on their respective instrument at one point in time.

There are a few highly sought after teachers who no longer play. The best example I can draw from memory is Vincent Cichowicz, a professor of trumpet at Northwestern University. His students get their aural examples from the local scene and accompany that with his teachings.

Tubad, I don't agree with you on point 1. The only career with a relatively defined set of skills is orchestral playing. There is a certain set of music skills all of us must learn, then we brach off to choose and pursue our expertise. In the show-biz world and studio world, people get hired for their sound, intonation, etc, but also, for their "feel" (what school teaches that?), their hang factor (no one wants to sit next to that guy!), or maybe they're buddies with a contractor. I know "serious" working bass players who couldn't get into any school because they don't read music or play with the bow, however they do know all the tunes, they can play beautiful solo's, and they end up doing masterclasses and teaching at those same schools that would not admit them. Before marginalizing this group of players, I would guess that their numbers outweigh working tuba players. My point is that it takes totally different skill sets to compete in the orchestral, jazz, or show-biz/commercial world, many of those skills (in my opinion), cannot be and are not taught in any school. As an example, an old friend of mine, made his living in new york for 30 years playing dixieland tuba. Sure, he could read, (if the music was in inch from his nose in treble clef), he had perfect pitch, and he was an IU alumnus, on flute! What was his skill set? He knew every tune, and had learned them on the gig. For me, I wouldn't envy the best tuba player coming out of the best studio in the country moving to New York with out any connections right now(I would envy their playing, not their work possibilities), unless they could play bass or bass trombone. Again, just me talking here, but I'm talking the truth as I see it. Peace. ASG

LV wrote:

Your ears are most likely hearing the same things many of us hear at some of the various tuba/euph conferences held throughout. There are plenty of half baked professors who get jobs teaching because they completed a Doctorate and were passable on their respective instrument at one point in time.

Wow! Now we're bringing it out into the light! This is such a huge problem and symptom of the higher ed system. Jumping through the tenure hoops vs being a competent educator/musician/tubist/euphist seem to be miles apart.

The same could be said for winning and keeping an orchestral job. Very few players in major orchestras would be able to win their jobs back. There is always a hot-shot with more chops ready to step in.

I couldn't find anywhere if you had specified between going for music education or performance or anything else. If you are looking for a place to get the music education degree, the University of Northern Colorado has an amazing teaching program with nearly 100% placement. They also have a great music school with a great tuba professor, Jason Byrnes. I know he is great because he is my private teacher and I may be a little partial since that is where I am going to go but the price isn't too bad and it's not a huge school. It might be a good place to look into. Their website is www.UNCO.edu

Good luck
Ben