The two shoulder solution?

[jacobg]

Putting aside practicality, economics, and tradition for a minute, can we have a discussion about portable bass brass ergonomics?

Sousaphones and helicons sit on one shoulder. Up to 40 lbs of brass on one shoulder doesn’t make sense to me. Marching glocks are on two shoulders. So are military backpacks. So are bari-sax harnesses. The only two shoulder tuba I can find is the toilet seat tuba, but it seems as if this design was never attempted with a large, modern instrument, or with modern ergonomics in mind.

A few alternatives:

Has anyone ever attempted to attach strap rings to the right shoulder side of the sousaphone? So the instrument sits in the traditional way on the left shoulder, but has a strap the connects the right upper bow with the right bottom bow?

How about reshaping the inner, top bow (on a BBb sousaphone) so that it curves over the right shoulder?

How about taking a front action tuba and putting the player in between the valveset and the horn, with the horn worn on the players back? I’m envisioning something like a jetpack with the controls in front, and the bell sticking straight up above the players head. A real backpack tuba. You could conceivably scale this up, even to 6/4 tuba size.

Yes, I know you can get used to the weight on one shoulder, and I know these are expensive and foolhardy projects, but I’m just wondering if we really reached the end of portable tuba design in the late 19th century.

[Highpitch]

The Brits have it in the bag. Literally. They lug a bigass B&H compensator BBb in a bag with straps over both shoulders when on the march.

To wit:
http://www.tasset.com/harnaispourtubaba ... d=25ccc6ff" target="_blank

Sounded OK to me when I got the see the changing of the guard at Buckingham.

Maybe a Sousa is just an American preference. Made in the USA-itis?

DDG

[jacobg]

OK, but that's the same as a tuba harness, right? Wouldn't it make sense to put the actually weight of the horn on your back, rather than on your chest?

[David Richoux]

A tuba version of this?
http://www.horncollector.com/uploads/Le ... 01_484.png

It would be strange

[jacobg]

There is a tuba version of the lehnert.

http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/15309 ... -sarv-tuba" target="_blank

The problems with that seems to be that it balances precariously in mid-air, and both arms need to be up supporting it all the time.
I'm proposing something that rests on your back, perpendicular to the lehnert design.

[PaulTkachenko]

A friend of mine uses a kind of sax harness - the type that uses the shoulders not the neck - to help when he plays sousa.

It's a good idea.

Really, all that's needed is to get some of the weight on to the other shoulder somehow.

[ralphbsz]

It seems to me that the problem is trying to carry a large and heavy instrument, while maintaining the position of the mouthpiece accurately on the lips, and keeping the hands free for the valves. Wouldn't it make sense to split this into two problems, by separating the tuba into two pieces, connected by flexible pipe? The big heavy part (the bell and most of the body, all the big-diameter tube) would be attached to the body, in some fashion that makes it easy to carry. The small but accurate part (the mouthpiece, lead pipe, and valve set) would be held by hand, and kept at the perfect position for playing. The flexible part would probably affect sound quality somewhat, but marching with a tuba is probably always a compromise.

Has anything like that ever been tried on a tuba-sized instrument? I know one example exists, although it is trumpet-sized, and meant as musical humor: The "gom horn da testa", which is played by "Les Luthiers", an Argentinian group of musical humorists. You can find some info about it on the web (nearly all in Spanish); here is an example of it being played: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8K9RsnOup8" target="_blank

Interesting coincidence that you ask this question right now. My son (who is in 8th grade) had to play for the first time with a marching tuba (the one that sits on the shoulder) last Friday night. He had about 10 minutes of warmup time, before having to march into the football stadium and play the national anthem, and then play the rest of the football game with the pep band in the stands. It seems that if you don't practice it, the instrument (they call it both marching tuba and contra bugle) is a bit painful on the shoulder, and it's hard to keep the mouthpiece in the right place, while moving around, sight-reading the music, and looking at the drum major.

[David Richoux]

Fun stuff! Thanks... http://leslu.com.ar/instrumentos/inttaller.htm

[ralphbsz]

Yes, Les Luthiers play a "tuba" that is something like a cross between a contrabass trombone and a pan flute (multiple mouthpieces!), made out of cardboard tubes, with the front half supported on wheels that would be appropriate to an old-fashioned baby stroller. Google for "bass pipe a vara" sometime. Great playing here: http://leslu.com.ar/instrumentos/bass%20pipe/bssp.htm" target="_blank

But that's off-topic to the question of how to best hold a real tuba (not made out of cardboard tubes) while standing or walking.

[David Richoux]

There's a French group that rides on segways, the sousaphone player has a different design to hold his instrument.

That would be Fanfare L.E. S.N.O.B in the form of "Glisssssando" with instruments designed by Ulik.

They are riding a different sort of wheeled device that is controlled by the lower legs called the Hands-Free.

[opus37]

Frankly, we have chosen a large instrument and part of the deal is to carry the horn. Having a backpack horn as proposed just seems wrong to me. If your shoulder hurts from carrying a Sousaphone, get a pad. I I know 86 year olds who march with a Cerveny Piggy and a harness.

[Donn]

This probably varies from one player to the next, but all I have to do is wad a jacket or something over my right shoulder and under the bow of the sousaphone behind my back, and voilá, supported on left and right shoulders. Not that I've ever done it until this afternoon. That could evolve into a sling, buckled around the sousaphone bow, which you'd have to fish out over your shoulder and hook up somewhere in the front.

[aqualung]

The only people who complain about or belittle marching with a wind instrument are people who never bothered to learn correct marching technique. A smooth glide or roll step eliminates all bouncing. Learn to march while holding a full glass of water - don't spill any. The movement is like a waitress schlepping a full tray of expensive dinners. Or a beauty pageant contestant.

If you have to march Big Ten style, I feel for ya.

[jacobg]

As far as I can tell, the "one shoulder" thing came from a design for the saxtuba by Adolph Sax, for instruments that were based on Roman horns. But these (cornu?) were much smaller than a sousaphone, probably like the size of a hunting horn.

You would think that Sax must have experimented with all different shapes - it seems like he was a pretty exhaustive experimenter. Someone must have made an "apron" style horn, no? or a "jetpack" style?

Why is it on one shoulder? Is it easier to manufacture something in a circle than an irregular shape? Is it because it is (somewhat) universal, able to fit many different body types?

The tuba, especially the BBb, has a lot of tubing to work with. As the segway sousaphone or the king pit tuba demonstrate, it can be molded to nearly any shape. It is also unique among most large wind instruments because the player doesn't need to have access to the entire instrument - just the valves. Thus the bari sax or contrabass clarinet must be in front of the player, where they can reach keys that cover holes on the largest part of the body, but the tuba doesn't need to be. The valves almost can function like a remote control for the rest of the body, which could be really anywhere.

[eupher61]

The helicon was patented in 1849, in Bavaria. That's the same year of Sax's patents for his brass instruments, from what I can tell.

[David Richoux]

As far as I can tell, the "one shoulder" thing came from a design for the saxtuba by Adolph Sax, for instruments that were based on Roman horns. But these (cornu?) were much smaller than a sousaphone, probably like the size of a hunting horn.

You would think that Sax must have experimented with all different shapes - it seems like he was a pretty exhaustive experimenter. Someone must have made an "apron" style horn, no? or a "jetpack" style?

Why is it on one shoulder? Is it easier to manufacture something in a circle than an irregular shape? Is it because it is (somewhat) universal, able to fit many different body types?

The tuba, especially the BBb, has a lot of tubing to work with. As the segway sousaphone or the king pit tuba demonstrate, it can be molded to nearly any shape. It is also unique among most large wind instruments because the player doesn't need to have access to the entire instrument - just the valves. Thus the bari sax or contrabass clarinet must be in front of the player, where they can reach keys that cover holes on the largest part of the body, but the tuba doesn't need to be. The valves almost can function like a remote control for the rest of the body, which could be really anywhere.

1. There are illustrations of very large Cornu (Corni?) but they would be relatively light with no valves or extra pipes.

2. Sax did come up with a lot of odd configurations - that 6 or 7 bell thing was interesting to look at! Heavy, complicated and not significantly better than what has become the standard designs.

3. The two shoulder question is what we are investigating. Simple shapes are much easier to make for many different reasons - tools to shape flats, tapers and regular curves (in brass or any other material) are going to be much cheaper to make and use. Complicated shapes lead to more errors and fit problems. I can see long linkages or wire control valves for a "jet-pack tuba" shape - way extra complicated!

4. Don't forget the need to access water keys, tuning slides, etc. and also complications in getting the instrument in and out of playing position, storage, assembly, balance and fragility of the more unusual shaped horns. The Sousaphone shape has proven to be a good compromise in tuba design - it can be used in 2 (or three) different configurations (with a side stand,) packs into a relatively small case (for the size of the horn) and it does balance well for most people if the bell is properly set.

[jacobg]

The jetpack idea - I wasn't thinking wires or linkages. I was thinking standard tuba body on your back with backpack straps, standard valveset in front of your chest, standard sousaphone neck and bits, and connected along the side of your torso by tubing that goes to the larger bows.

With a detachable valveset, and detachable connecting tubing, the whole thing would fit in a standard case.

Not so hard to make, is it? If a sousaphone already costs $4000 new, and a pro tuba easily much more than that, could it not be made to a different shape? It's still mechanically less complex than a baritone sax.

This describes a helicon shoulder rest. I can't make out if it is intended for one or both shoulders, but if for both, it would be a confirmation that I am not the first to think this might be a solvable problem.

http://sousacentral.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... ke-it.html" target="_blank

[J.c. Sherman]

Doesn't anyone (from age 12 - age 82) who signs up to march with any sort of tuba (mostly) deserve what they get?

Hell no. Some of us hate(d) marching band, and in order to get any credit, other playing opportunities or the band directors ^%#$ing signature on anything, we had to march. I loathed it and loathed him for it. What a complete waste of time with no musical benefits and a hell of a lot of cold and noise and mud and aching shoulders.

YM might V

[pjv]

Never let others tell you what you should think or dream. Without far out ideas we'd all probably be playing the recorder.

There are some very real obstacles in your design which others here have already highlighted, one of them being strength in design. We've seen tubas with removable valve sets, so we know it possible to have these two parts (1.the valves 2.the the rest all the way up to the bell). The weak part is the tubing between the valve section and the bell section.

Costs. Don't underestimate this one. The larger tuba playing community, together with instrument techs are fortunately willing to invest their time and money to slowly but surely improve the tuba designs. This is expensive, time consuming and a gamble. Tuba designs vary greatly and our tubas come in probably more shapes and sizes than any other brass instrument. Its large so it costs more to build. Its conical so second guessing the results of any design change can be very difficult to impossible. And there are less tuba players than there are trumpet, trombone and horn players = less investors.

Air. By carrying an instrument you restrict your air. I've tried the extra sousaphone strap before. Instead of restricting lung expansion above one shoulder it was restricted above both shoulders. By the way, the tuba pouch works great. Very comfortable, more so than most straps. For me the disadvantage is the same; air constriction. And when it comes to choosing between having my shoulder and back expansion restricted by straps and my chest and stomach expansion restricted by the tuba itself, I'll go for a sousaphone any day.

And now for some fun; I've often heard many people say that the larger cimbassi sound like tubas on a stick. So, by a really large cimbasso and get a longer stick.

Problem solved.

-Pat

[ralphbsz]

(This post is meant as humor, not as a serious contribution to the discussion of how to march with tubas)

One of the predecessors of the tuba is the Swiss alphorn: A wooden, conical instrument, about 10 or 12 feet long. Today, it can be had with 3-valve setups (I think Miraphone or Meinl make the valve kit).

Marching with an alphorn would be easy. Just attach two wheels to the front, and push it (preferably not with your lips). There are no problems with havingn the weight on your shoulders. In case your band has to go in anything but a straight line, it would be easy to add steering to the front wheels.

I can just see it: A 6-valve rotary F alphorn, with a slide kicker on a seventh paddle, and the eighth paddle for front wheel steering. If someone is good with photochop, we could even get a picture of that.

I'll put my serious question into a different thread.