Where are all the pre-1900 European-made tubas?

[scottw]

Here's a European tuba from 1862: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... me=rvi:1:2

[MartyNeilan]

Check EBay periodically, you would be surprised at the 1800's tubas that pop up there, including ones with different kinds of extinct valves.

[jacobg]

That tuba ("european from 1862") is not that old. I think he dated it from the patent date on the bell, which is never accurate.
This one is older.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 29204&rd=1

Anyway, for kicks, here is a scan from a book I have about Evan Gorga, an Italian tenor and instrument collector from the early 20th century. He had about 3000 instruments.

[Rick Denney]

What tubas did US and European tubists play in orchestras and bands prior to 1900? What size were they? Were there BAT's? Anybody have some answers?

They were not BAT's. I've asked this question myself on many occasions, but have never found a good source for an answer. The instruments used in Europe are easier to identify than those used in the U.S. In England, the immediate successor to the ophicleide was probably a euphonium, followed by a small F tuba which became the standard there until at least the 1960's. It's likely that Italian orchestras followed the ophicleide with a valved contrabass trombone, or cimbasso. German orchestras seemd to have gone to the rotary F tuba, as they still use today. The one or two pictures I've seen of 19th-century American orchestras do not show a big instrument. I think it's quite likely that the ophicleide survived in American orchestras quite late. If a tuba was used, it was likely a small Eb instrument of the Distin type. I have a Missenharter of similar vintage and design.

It seems to me there are three basic varieties of European instruments from the 19th century: Big (by comparison) rotary tubas of the Cerveny style, small rotary or Berliner-pumpen tubas of the Wieprecht style, and top-action piston tubas of the Sax style. The latter seemed to dominate in France, Italy and England, while the former dominated in Germany and Eastern Europe. The driving force in design was the military band, however, not the orchestra. I would be surprised if the "Kontrabasstuba" of Wagner is anything but a big rotary Cerveny kaisertuba, such as the 1872 model pictured in Bevan, which was probably originally intended for military band use.

It would seem that both the saxhorn style and the Cerveny style came across to the U.S. with waves of immigrants from Germany and with waves of imports from England and France. To me, the front-action piston tuba is an amalgamation of the two styles, with the instrument being held like a rotary tuba but using valves like a saxhorn. But top-action Eb tubas were more common in orchestras, or rotary tubas of German manufacture (as used by Helleberg) or American copies of them (as used by Bell). I suspect Bell's predecessors used a tuba, and I suspect those tubas were small Eb instruments. I don't know if Helleberg, who was active in orchestras at the end of the 19th century, was preceded by tuba player or an ophicleide player.

As in Germany, development in the U.S. seemed more closely tied to military-style bands than to orchestras. In that vein, helicons were favored because they could be played easily while standing and marching. Then followed the bell-up helicon (of course, the first sousaphone), which was converted once and for all to a bell-front version along with the rest of the recording-bass craze of the 1930's. I have this feeling that the size of the sound produced by the big bell-up sousaphones attracted attention from band players who wanted that sound in a regular tuba, and I suspect that is the origin of the BAT. We all know how the BAT made the jump into orchestras, but that was long after the end of the 19th century.

Rick "always interested in the history of orchestral tuba practice" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

This is perhaps cutting fairly close to your definition of "19th century", but a friend owns a huge Belgian BBb that dates to the 1890's or so. He has a photo of it being used in band around 1907.

[Shockwave]

Here is a picture of my BBb tuba, made in France circa 1885 as a stencil import to the U.S. The bell is 19", the bore is .735, and the sound is fantastic. It was used in the Boston symphony once in the 70's for a piece that needed that "Bb tuba sound". Though I doubt French orchestras used such an instrument in the 19th century, it was available.



Below is an Eb bass saxhorn made in the 1850's by E. G. Wright. I'm told that having 4 valves on such an old horn is rare, though identical models were made into the 1880's by the Boston Musical Instrument Manufy into which E. G. Wright merged. It's a wonderful horn that plays in tune, is agile, has a nice tone, and really cranks out the bass. The bell is 11.5 and the bore is .650 with an extremely short leadpipe and huge mouthpiece receiver. I don't have a mouthpiece that fits, though it plays fine with some paper wrapped around a normal tuba mouthpiece. If people didn't use this type of instrument for orchestral tuba parts, they were fools! The guy I bought it from had the 4th valve permanently engaged and had the tuning slides pulled all the way out so that it played in BBb, and it did actually work!



-Eric

[Rick Denney]

Here is a picture of my BBb tuba, made in France circa 1885 as a stencil import to the U.S. The bell is 19", the bore is .735, and the sound is fantastic.

I'll bet it was made for a band application at the time. But you could scale it down and it would look just like the typical Distin-style top-action saxhorn. My Missenharter is similar, and a modern Yamaha 321 follows the same basic design.

Your other picture is similar to many of the over-the-shoulder designs, with top-action rotary valves and right-angle linkages.

What I find interesting is that many American makers made saxhorn-style instruments with rotary valves and later front-action kaiser-size instruments with piston valves. That was quite a crossover of technology from its roots in Europe.

Fatness came to tubas after the original designs were established. It seems as though Moritz was interested in producing an instrument that would look and be held like a bassoon or ophicleide, with a long, narrow shape. The assumption all along was to have valves on both hands, ala keyed instruments.

I've played an F tuba of the Moritz vintage on display at Dillons, and the first thing that popped into my mind was "small-bore euphonium with the fourth valve held down and a leaky water key".

The fatness of the outer branches seems to have bridged from band to orchestra, perhaps around the turn of the century to start with, but not championed by a major player until much later. But fat tubas were made earlier, presumably for band use. The 1872 Cerveny is one such. I've never seen one in a picture of a symphony orchestra.

Rick "who thinks military bands were a more important commercial market than symphony orchestras at the time" Denney