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Ok What do you do when the parts are horribly written? The leader is convinced you're playing bad notes yet you show him that your playing the right note on the page and he refuses to believe you.

brassbow wrote:The leader is convinced you're playing bad notes yet you show him that your playing the right note on the page and he refuses to believe you.

Quit.

Andrew

Look at the scores or two parts beside you, change your pitches if need be...

Collect the parts and have a ceremonial pyre starting with a lighter fluid soaked full score.

Who cares what's on the page?

I played a couple of church charts some years ago that were in D# major - everything sharp and two double sharps in the key signature. Lots of double sharp and double flat accidentals, as well.
Even though it was technically correct, it was very hard reading. Obviously, someone who did not know how to use notation software.

MartyNeilan wrote:I played a couple of church charts some years ago that were in D# major - everything sharp and two double sharps in the key signature. Lots of double sharp and double flat accidentals, as well.
Even though it was technically correct, it was very hard reading. Obviously, someone who did not know how to use notation software.

That drives me crazy. Somebody makes a theoretically correct (and completely unreadable) part, and they feel all righteous while the mortals who have to play it struggle to make music.The double accidental is what would be called a design flaw in any other discipline.

bloke wrote:bloke's Truth of Gig Survival #73

The reason we teach scale patterns to our fingers and chord progressions to our ears is to be able to play things in weird keys without having to struggle.

And here again we have the difference between professionals and mortals. Who has time for scale patterns in different keys if playing music isn't (one of) your job(s)? I feel fortunate that I had a band director thirty-some years ago who made me learn all the major and minor scales. My memory of them is spotty and has been mostly recoverable. Not everyone who shows up with a tuba had even that.

To be honest, writing/arranging music is a theoretical thing. No one will ever write it "wrong" just so that it will be easier to read. I'm sorry...

Played a Clydesdale chart with my volunteer church orchestra a month or so ago that had the C instruments in F# major, putting the trumpets in G# major. He had the presence of mind to have them in Ab major instead. Makes for a really wierd looking score though. Interestingly enough I had to rewrite the trumpet parts because he had them up to a Ab major triad above the staff and Sibelius automatically took it to the flat key. It was able to handle the parts in different keys. I didn't have to ask it to do so. Somewhere someone has some common sense.

By the way Shleppy, I don't find Larry to be the worst offender. Not even close to the top. Clydesdale however is a different story. I have to rescore almost every chart we do.

elihellsten wrote:To be honest, writing/arranging music is a theoretical thing. No one will ever write it "wrong" just so that it will be easier to read. I'm sorry...

That's OK! In "theory", I might be playing what's written for me.

talleyrand wrote:

bloke wrote:bloke's Truth of Gig Survival #73

The reason we teach scale patterns to our fingers and chord progressions to our ears is to be able to play things in weird keys without having to struggle.

And here again we have the difference between professionals and mortals. Who has time for scale patterns in different keys if playing music isn't (one of) your job(s)? I feel fortunate that I had a band director thirty-some years ago who made me learn all the major and minor scales. My memory of them is spotty and has been mostly recoverable. Not everyone who shows up with a tuba had even that.

I play all scales around the circle of fifths every time I sit down to practice, as part of my warm-up routine. Were I a pro, I would do it in two or three octaves and play all the scale variations, too.

But knowing and playing the fingering patterns isn't exactly the same skill set as reading in unfamiliar keys. They overlap, and if one knows the tune the patterns can sometimes play themselves, with an understanding of what the accidentals do as the exception to what is happening without thought. That's really where the pros and mortals differ. My reading improved dramatically when I finally learned all those scales, but I still struggle with keys that have too many sharps, simply because I see them so rarely and don't practice actual music written in those keys. And that's another difference--mortals are trying to learn the music being performed at the moment, while pros are trying to reinforce general abilities in support of music they mostly already know.

There is a difference, however, between writing that is confusing and writing that includes mistakes. Yes, the arranger may not know his software, but we do. More than once I've written out a part to be easier to read or to correct mistakes.

Church arrangers are the worst that will be faced by most amateurs. In my experience, church arrangers write in manuscript that would make a Hollywood arranger blush in embarrassment, and the music is often so schlocky that it defies intuition. And amateur church arrangers look on Wikipedia and see that tubas have a five-octave range and often use parts written in the treble clef, or read that a tuba is a "Bb instrument", and write a part that has to be transposed. Now, there's a skill that most amateurs never learn (including me), but pros do. I've made notes on church parts that were handed to me before the service by an organist all proud of her ability to write out a transposed part. I guess she missed the part that bass-clef instruments are rarely if ever transposed. Often, I wish she'd just hand me the hymnal. But when I explained that tuba music was written in concert pitch, she argued with me. When I told her the tuba I'd brought was actually an F instrument, her head exploded.

Rick "no use complaining about it: either adapt or quit" Denney

tbn.al wrote:Clydesdale however is a different story. I have to rescore almost every chart we do.

Amen! And all that effort for sweatshop music that is just dreadful. Back when his shop used manuscript, it was illegible and I had to rewrite the parts just so I could read it at that stage of my abilities. I might do better now, but I now live where there are no megachurches and musical performance in churches here tends to be much more intimate. Down in Texas, the only term I can think of to describe the holiday programs is musical extravaganza!

I played a church gig about 25 years ago that was based on the tune of "How Great Thou Art", and Clydesdale had launched into Handel's Hallelujah chorus in the last movement, only to suddenly jump to How Great Thou Art at the climax of the music. The orchestra just almost walked out en masse on first reading. The audience, certainly no bastion of musical culture, groaned at that "transition".

I contrast that with a performance at another church in the same city where we performed the Poulenc Gloria. What a difference!

Rick "thinking 'How Great Thou Art' would make a good enough extended choral work without any help from Handel" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:
I've made notes on church parts that were handed to me before the service by an organist all proud of her ability to write out a transposed part. I guess she missed the part that bass-clef instruments are rarely if ever transposed. Often, I wish she'd just hand me the hymnal. But when I explained that tuba music was written in concert pitch, she argued with me. When I told her the tuba I'd brought was actually an F instrument, her head exploded.

Well, that's *one* way to end an argument ...

~~~

"In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice ... but in practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra

Kevin Hendrick wrote:

Rick Denney wrote:her head exploded.

Well, that's *one* way to end an argument ...

And an enjoyable way, too.

She asked, "how do you transpose the music for that?" I answered, "I don't. I just mash different buttons when I use this instrument."

"How can you do that?"

"It's a heck of a lot easier than seeing a black spot on the page that is not the pitch I actually should play."

That's when the fracture occurred.

Rick "whose struggles enough to hear the correct pitch when sight-reading" Denney

I remember a church choir/orchestra rehearsal that was interupted and delayed 10 minutes by a question from the podium concerning a certain pitch in the viola part. If you think choir directors have a problem with transposition, try discussing clefs! What a hoot! I also recently saw a cello part in treble clef, not tenor clef mind you, but non transposing treble clef. And it was mostly many ledger lines below the staff. This was from a major publisher.

Since we are on the topic - happend to find this classic today!

Kevin Hendrick wrote:

Rick Denney wrote: ~~

"In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice ... but in practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra

haha...thanks Kevin.

1. new Yogi for me
2. good response

Armin

David Richoux wrote:Since we are on the topic - happend to find this classic today!

God, I am glad that I quit playing!

David Richoux wrote:Since we are on the topic - happend to find this classic today!

This is obviously not a new problem. That comic chart has been around for years. There must have been some motivation, not unlike what sparks this discussion, back then for someone to spend that amount of time and energy on a spoof. I do think it is worse now with all the software out there that does whatever it wants and only the very talented have any idea how to fix it.