Arnold's horn for use in quintets

[Tabor]

I was listening to a good collection of brass quintet music over the weekend and was wondering why players don't use big horns more often in the quintet setting. I think Arnold Jacobs used either his York or the big Holton in quintets and from the recordings, I think it sounds great.

When I listen to some ensembles and recordings, the tuba part really seems like "background" rather than a present and important part of the music. (sometimes even on solos or exposed parts) While this probably has more to do with the playing/recording of particular individuals than the horn I was wondering about the trend. What do "y'all" think?

-Tabor

[dunelandmusic]

Perhaps players use a particular horn more for the way it blends, rather than the power. There may be harmonic frequencies players feel they like better on a particular hon. That being said, I agree that a larger horn can sound great in the setting.

[Mark]

Perhaps players use a particular horn more for the way it blends, rather than the power. There may be harmonic frequencies players feel they like better on a particular hon. That being said, I agree that a larger horn can sound great in the setting.

I agree; it is the blend.

[Rick Denney]

I voted none of the above. The reason I use a small tuba is so I can blend with the trombone, especially when playing arrangement of early music. My big tuba's tone is too round and contrasts with the trombone too much. I prefer the brighter, more clear sound of an F tuba.

Baroque and other polyphonic music is about structure more than timbre or tone color, and anything that obscures the structure is likely to be unhelpful. Perhaps a better player could be more clear on a big horn than I am and compensate.

The magic of a brass quintet is when five equal voices play in sympathy with good intonation and balance. That requires some common elements in the sound.

For modern stuff, clarity is still important, but blending with the trombone is probably not as critical because the tuba's part is its own voice. Thus, for the Bozza, Jacobs's use of the big horn seems fine. I don't like the early recording of another of the greats in one of those early quintets, however, because it lacks that sort of clarity.

Rick "who thinks the rest of the quintet affects the choice, too" Denney

[Alex C]

No need for me to take up the cause for Arnold Jacobs on this. The recording of the CSO Quintet speaks for itself. Jake played the York on those recordings. The balance is terrific except for the 2nd trumpet who was a little beneath the rest of the quintet (Herseth, Farkas (?), Crisifulli and Jacobs) but most people would be.

On the first recording of the Philip Jones BQ, Fletcher played the CC Holton. It sounds terrific. No balance problem there.

There have been others... but I can only recall a couple: the first recording of the Metropolitian Brass Quintet (Cleveland). Richard Barth was the tubist on that recording; Lew Waldeck played a large tuba (a large Conn, I think) on the recordings of the Modern Brass Quintet.

That said, an outstanding player will sound great in a BQ with whatever instrument he choses to play. For the rest of us, it is best to exercise caution and select an instrument that is more likely to do a better job for us.

Times have changed, too. There is a variety of better instruments available to choose from.

Musical preference is a highly personal thing, isn't it?

[LOTP]

A few years ago I was playing (F)horn in a brass ensemble with anywhere from 5-8 members depending on availability. I showed up for a gig on a hot summer afternoon only to find that half the group,including the leader, were out with various illnesses. We went ahead with the gig using two trumpets, horn, and a tuba. Fortunately the tubist had his Yam YBB-103 in his car. We chose our material carefully to avoid too many "holes" in the arrangements. The smaller tuba, played gently, blended beautifully. Many positive comments on our (rather relaxed) sound. Ya dont got to play loud to play good!
The tubist's big fat Martin would have been completely out of place.

[JayW]

I am totally with Rick, blending with the t-bone and even F horn is more of what i am going for. If I can pull it off with a lrge horn...great, but right now it just works easier with a smaller horn.

[JB]

...blending with the t-bone and even F horn is more of what i am going for....

Rather than the size of the instrument, this (blend) seems more of the deciding factor. I think JayW is right on target with his statement.

This topic has been discussed amongst my tuba playing collegues before, and most, including myself, seem to agree with Bloke's opinion above:

I don't like listening to quintets where the sound is as a "bass" and a brass quartet...

The analogy of using a contrabass versus using a cello as the bottom voice in a string quartet seems applicable. Simply the wrong size (colour, sound, ability to blend) instrument for the job. For me this issue is about five equal voices, and this is why I prefer using F tubas in quintet. If I could make my orchestra CC horn accomplish this, I would use it. But I cannot; the same apparently applies to JayW.

If I can pull it off with a lrge horn...great, but right now it just works easier with a smaller horn.

I would be willing to bet that his statement is true for a large percentage of those who play smaller horns in 5tet, and that this is the reason for their choice of instrument.

[Tubadan]

The analogy of using a contrabass versus using a cello as the bottom voice in a string quartet seems applicable. Simply the wrong size (colour, sound, ability to blend) instrument for the job. For me this issue is about five equal voices, and this is why I prefer using F tubas in quintet. If I could make my orchestra CC horn accomplish this, I would use it. But I cannot; the same apparently applies to JayW.

Actually, the reason there is no double bass in the string quintet is that when the earliest quintet music for strings was written, the bass had not been as technically advanced as the other 3 instruments. The Stradavarius family didn't make basses. This is also a reason for the basses doubling the cello until Beethoven.

[cjk]

why players don't use big horns more often in the quintet setting.

Perhaps some tuba players realize that everybody in the audience is not a tuba player and could not care less about how big his/her tuba is, so why cart around that heavy thing (?)

[MartyNeilan]

Its about timbre, not volume.
I vote for small to medium tubas for the following reason - they often project more in a quintet. A big tuba with a darker sound sits under and supports a quintet, but a smaller tuba with a brighter sound cuts through as a 5th solo instrument in the quintet. I know tubists who want the horn to be "felt more than heard" in an orchestra, but just the opposite applies in a quintet or sextet (can I say that word ) setting.
FWIW, I played my 2145 in a quintet for a couple of semesters and then switched to my Cerveny F. The F sound was much more apparent than the darker 2145, and the quint valve still gives me a low range, albeit brighter than a CC. My recent switch to an FC Helleberg on the F further opened it up.

[JB]

The analogy of using a contrabass versus using a cello as the bottom voice in a string quartet seems applicable. Simply the wrong size (colour, sound, ability to blend) instrument for the job. For me this issue is about five equal voices, and this is why I prefer using F tubas in quintet. If I could make my orchestra CC horn accomplish this, I would use it. But I cannot; the same apparently applies to JayW.

Actually, the reason there is no double bass in the string quintet is that when the earliest quintet music for strings was written, the bass had not been as technically advanced as the other 3 instruments. The Stradavarius family didn't make basses. This is also a reason for the basses doubling the cello until Beethoven.

FWIW:

Wasn't so much talking about the historical reason for instrumentation, but rather the fact that the bass is not the same in terms of colour, weight, timbre, etc. to match as an equal voice with the two violins and viola in the way that a cello can manage.

[Duane]

It boils down to this, sound for sound's sake. CC tubas and F tubas do have a different sound in instrumental settings. You even hear of brass quintets with bass trombones instead of tubas. Basically, the tuba player needs to figure out what type of sound they want in a brass quintet. There will be arguments for both CC’s and F’s so you need to ask yourself, what do you want to play. And maybe just as important, which horn does the quintet like playing with.

[MaryAnn]

Its about timbre, not volume.

That's what I was going to say; but it depends somehwat on what music you're doing. Most of what we do works very well on my small CC, but there are occasional pieces where the small F is just perfect and the CC would be out of place. Especially the more contrapuntal, earlier music arrangements.

MA

[JCalkin]

The analogy of using a contrabass versus using a cello as the bottom voice in a string quartet seems applicable. Simply the wrong size (colour, sound, ability to blend) instrument for the job. For me this issue is about five equal voices, and this is why I prefer using F tubas in quintet. If I could make my orchestra CC horn accomplish this, I would use it. But I cannot; the same apparently applies to JayW.

Actually, the reason there is no double bass in the string quintet is that when the earliest quintet music for strings was written, the bass had not been as technically advanced as the other 3 instruments. The Stradavarius family didn't make basses. This is also a reason for the basses doubling the cello until Beethoven.

That, and the double bass is actually a member of a different family, the viols. I'm sure that has something to do with it, too.