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I suppose we're approaching a point in time when A=440 will be a thing of the past.... whether we like it or not!

I have a Yamaha woodwind in the shop with the complaint that it plays sharp. Ordinarily, with name-brand instruments it's the fault of the player or the choice of mouthpiece. Not so this time. It's only published in the Yamaha vendor price list (not to the general public) that ALL Yamaha instruments in current manufacture are pitched at A=442. Those of us in the 'parts only' business (not privy to instrument price lists) have this information. Neither do band directors or the general public.

We're seeing quite a few tubas and such with pitch problems. I surmise that this A=442 is not just a trend.

We're going to have an even tougher time trying to play with out of tune pianos or church organs! I know, I know.... it's only 20 cents or so. But.... if your slides are already falling to the floor... what are you going to do?

If your horn is built to A=442, your slide shouldn't be falling while playing at A=440. It's just not that much of a difference.

cjk wrote:If your horn is built to A=442, your slide shouldn't be falling while playing at A=440. It's just not that much of a difference.

That depends of how much 'pull' the manufacturer allowed in the first place. I know we are only talking about 20 cents or so here but many of the horns I'm seeing these days are rather 'skimpy' on the slide length.

I'm not only talking about tubas here.

The difference between A=440 and A=442 is virtually impossible to detect by the human ear unless a true A=440 and A=442 are sounded at the same time. Many US orchestras are adopting A=442 as their pitch standard, as it puts more "shimmer" in the strings, apparently.

Listen to an old recording of the Berlin Philharmonic. Can you tell it's A=445? Listen to a new recording, too. Can you tell they've officially dropped their pitch to A=443?

Tom wrote:The difference between A=440 and A=442 is virtually impossible to detect by the human ear unless a true A=440 and A=442 are sounded at the same time. Many US orchestras are adopting A=442 as their pitch standard, as it puts more "shimmer" in the strings, apparently.

Listen to an old recording of the Berlin Philharmonic. Can you tell it's A=445? Listen to a new recording, too. Can you tell they've officially dropped their pitch to A=443?

Sure. And I understand all of that. However... I would think that manufacturers could make things a little more compatible over a reasonable range of something like A=436 through A=444?

They were sure keen on making horns flat for a number of years!

TubaTinker wrote:I know we are only talking about 20 cents or so here

Actually, the difference between 440Hz and 442 HZ is a bit less than 7.9 cents. A 20 cent difference would a hair over 5 Hz.

Yamaha hasn't changed their tuning: global warming makes everything play sharper.

Many US orchestras are adopting A=442 as their pitch standard, as it puts more "shimmer" in the strings, apparently.

I hear the next dose of cocaine is never as good as the first. Once folks get used to hearing 442 and the shimmer loses its, um, shimmer, what then?

For the record, one can definitely hear and feel the difference on other brass instruments. I spent about 3 years tromboning in Germany; everywhere I played we tuned to A=443. When I moved back to the USA, it took me almost a year to re-adjust to A=440 - I had to pull the tuning slide out constantly and everything felt really flat and "dull." And many (including me) can tell when an oboe is giving a tuning note that is even a touch flat or sharp.

pgym wrote:

TubaTinker wrote: Yamaha hasn't changed their tuning: global warming makes everything play sharper.

I understand the debate on this topic is over. LOL

TubaRay wrote:

pgym wrote:

TubaTinker wrote: Yamaha hasn't changed their tuning: global warming makes everything play sharper.

I understand the debate on this topic is over. LOL

That wasn't my quote but I guess it's OK.

I just wish EVERYONE could play in tune!

This has been discussed before:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17488

Allen

Is this a new problem? I thought it was common knowledge (or at least commonly believed) that Japanese instruments are built sharp.

My wife had problems for years with conductors complaining that her flute was flat, when compared with other players using Japanoids (not just Yamaha) that tune at A=442 or higher. Eventually we had to retire the trusty old Gemeinhardt (that plays perfectly at A=440) and scrape up the cash for a new Sankyo - the least expensive Jap we could find that actually plays in tune with itself, as long as you tune it sharp: she now fits smoothly into the rest of the section.

I can remember hearing about Japanese instruments being sharp as far back as the early eighties. Grimethorpe started using Yamaha tenor horns, and a huge controversy started up about whether they played sharp, or just had an unpleasant (a.k.a. different) sound quality. Personally, I would trust the ability of Grimethorpe's players far more than the accuracy of my own wooden ears.

KiltieTuba wrote:

Allen wrote:This has been discussed before:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17488

Allen

The purpose for the higher pitch has been discussed, but Dan's initial post about specific woodwinds from Yamaha being made at A=442 has not been discussed until now.

Actually, the OP is about ALL Yamaha instruments, not just woodwinds:

TubaTinker wrote:It's only published in the Yamaha vendor price list (not to the general public) that ALL Yamaha instruments in current manufacture are pitched at A=442.

bloke wrote:442 is about 1/10 of a semitone sharper than 440...the old adage "better sharp than out-of-tune", just doesn't work for me. I'd much rather (when playing the tuba) push a pitch up 10 c. rather than try to lower a pitch 5 c. Obviously, with the slide in the optimum position and a nice mostly-in-tune tuba, it's much easier to get through a gig...but if I might possibly miscalculate and have the slide "out" slightly too far (rather than "in" slightly too much), it keeps me honest...

It is noteworthy (pun intended) that some orchestras post for auditions the frequency at which the tuning "A" is played. Obviously, they're keenly aware of whether you can match not just the trombones, but the entire ensemble, with good intonation across the board.

KiltieTuba wrote:Soon we will get to Bb!

It is inevitable. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. Besides, everybody knows the fundamental pitch of the universe is actually Bb:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/16/scien ... -flat.html" target="_blank

TubaTinker wrote:I just wish EVERYONE could play in tune!

Tinker,
My slant-rotor C seems to have been built to 442, so it was a great orchestral horn from the start.
Is your slant-rotor BBb a tiny bit high, too? Since they were built in Germany, I'd think that they might think it more natural to use a BBb orchestrally. Then, too, they were built for the US market...

windshieldbug wrote:

TubaTinker wrote:I just wish EVERYONE could play in tune!

Tinker,
My slant-rotor C seems to have been built to 442, so it was a great orchestral horn from the start.
Is your slant-rotor BBb a tiny bit high, too? Since they were built in Germany, I'd think that they might think it more natural to use a BBb orchestrally. Then, too, they were built for the US market...

Yes. Both of my Marzans (the piston and the rotary BBb horns) can be played easily at 442.... AND 438 if need be. That's the whole point of me starting this discussion/gripe. If the Germans could do it... it seems to me that the Japanese/other Asians can do it.

It's no deep dark secret that the YBB-641 (rotary BBb tuba) is fundamentally sharp and needs to be 'pulled out' somewhat. The point is that IT CAN be pulled out... unlike this stinkin' YCL-221(2) bass clarinet that is supposed to be the 'new and improved' version.

Horns just need to be manufactured to cover a reasonable pitch range. It IS possible! So why is this often overlooked?

TubaTinker wrote:Yes. Both of my Marzans (the piston and the rotary BBb horns) can be played easily at 442.... AND 438 if need be.

The reason that I say "made sharp" is that you still need room on the tuning slide to cover the pulls/pushes that would normally done with valve slides to get maximum resonance on notes.

If I go low, there's not much room to pull...