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This summer, I'm going to attempt to build a replica of a Moritz style F tuba. I have a plan for everything but the valves. I want it to be as authentic as possible, so modern pistons won't do. I need 5 Berliner valves with a bore of 0.58 in.
My question: would it be easier to try to track down 5 in good shape (seems like a long shot to me) or try to make my own?
If the latter is the case, how should I go about this?
Thanks

Having constructed valves in the past, I can tell you that Ian is touching on the reality that you will not only need a lot of expensive tooling and materials but even more costly is the skills to perform the work and have the knowhow to do it. Perhaps you should look into having the assembly made for you. The cost of one machine used in the process will match or exceed the price you will pay to have the assembly made for you. Still, if you have the facility and mechanical interest to persue the project, don't be scared off, swing for the fences, you may surprise yourself as to what you are capable of. Good luck.

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
http://www.oberloh.com" target="_blank

I had the pleasure of conducting research this past spring at the NMM on pre-1850 low brass... instruments for which the makers had no real "template" to base their creations upon.

This focused a great deal on the build of Berlin valves... and they are fascinating. In some manner, they are the most simple of the valves to build, and many were made from a variety of sheet stock and then milled/lathed to the proper dimensions. Even on the instruments that showed little use, however, the fit of these was nominal at best, but "good enough" for their time. In the second half of the century, they improved greatly.

Truly, though, make sure you're wanting an physical replica; otherwise note that early bass tubas/bombardons are very commonly equipped with Vienna valves (which also require special tooling, but in some ways easier to make) and can very satisfactorily be acoustically replicated in contemporary rotary valves which are in essence not anachronistic to an early tuba.

J.c.S.

Since rotary valves are almost as old as tubas themselves, unless you need an absolutely historically accurate instrument as to both year and region of manufacture for some purpose, rotaries should work quite well, as Joseph Riedl invented the rotary valve almost as early as the actual Wieprecht-Moritz tubas. Plus, .58 is pretty much a standard rotary euphonium/tenor tuba size, and it would be much easier to procure a valve set than try to build one.

BTW -- except for the fingerings, a modern small bore rotary 5-valve F tuba isn't really that far removed from the original W-M. Just put on a different small throat, small flare bell. Something to consider.

This is the specific horn I'm basing my replica on:

When the valves are up, the original Berliner Pumpen have a straight through passage.

This is changed for the second valve in later versions:

viewtopic.php?t=32221&p=282930

Klaus

SousaWarrior9, you need to make sure you take some time to examine some earlier instruments... first hand. Their size is wildly different from anything made in the last 100+ years... their bore profile is significantly cylindrical, their bore small, the flare tiny, and their overall size is similar to an ophicleide, not a modern - even small - F.

The valves require close study if you're looking to replicate; of course, they're made using very early and simple technology, but they are state of the art for that period (Berlin Valves). You gotta hold 'em in your hand and really see the seams, what's hard and soft soldered, etc. They're a task.

You're getting recommendations to use extant rotors because of the time savings and because rotary/Riedl valves antedate the Moritz beast and acoustically they replicate them relatively well. If, however, you want a true replica down to the pistons used, I encourage you to make a trek to approach a museum with a project/application to examine their instrument(s). There are excellent examples at the National Music Museum; the Moritz lives abroad.

Lastly, these do work! They have a unique sound and it's very pleasant and full. Pitch is not what you're used to, but highly flexible. If you're anywhere near Cleveland, contact me and I'll have a Berlin-valve bass instrument in my shop for the next several months you can examine (a real train wreck, but the valves are in very good shape!).

Good luck!

I only want to use rotary valves as a last resort as I want to make it as accurate as possible. But, alas, it looks like I'm probably going to have to go that route because I don't think I can handle the tooling/work it will take for the berliner valves. And I don't see myself being able to be near any berliner instruments soon.
As for the replica plan, I already have a blueprint (scaled up from a photo) that has the correct height, bell diameter and close-to-correct tubing length.

As a side note, I pretty sure the tubing for valves 1, 2 and 5 (counting the valves from top to bottom) are 18", 8", and 48" respectively, but I don't know what length 3 or 4 need to be. Any ideas?

(Also, anyone know where I can find 5 rotors with a .58"ish bore? )

SousaWarrior9 wrote:
(Also, anyone know where I can find 5 rotors with a .58"ish bore? )

.59 is a very common euphonium size. you could get them off of an inexpensive Chinese rotary horn.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/professional-adv ... 3caadc9357" target="_blank

If you have lots money to throw into this, I'm sure you could order a set made by any instrument maker. Meinlschmidt could make you a complete valveset in either .57 or .59 bore size. (14.5mm and 15 mm)

http://www.jm-gmbh.de/html/meinlschmidt ... _teno.html" target="_blank

I believe that bore size is a little large; where did you get your data for bore, bell, height, etc?

Hallo Sousawarrior9,

I take it you want to build something very authentic?

Berliner valves were made in a wide variety of designs and materials over an approx 90 year period so your question is a bit hard to answer.

The horn in your picture looks to be an 1850s Moritz with its lack of movable slides and round lyre holder. Although there were other firms in Berlin and Potsdam(ie Brandenburg/Saxon) that built very similar looking tubas. Do you have any better pictures of the horn?

In any case, the valves on this particular tuba are very likely brass pistons running in brass casings. They were usually made on a foot powered lathe and mill. As new, they actually had excellent tolerances especially in the second half of the 19th century as mentioned by J.C.Sherman, but due to technological constraints, ie. valve oil etc and simply 150 years of wear and tear, it's difficult to find an original set in good condition.

If I come across something in Berlin, I'll let you know.

I wish you the best of luck with your project and am looking forward to the completed photos!
cheers
2165

and now for something different..
1870's Berliner Valves "NOS" never installed
for an F or C tuba. 16.5mm

2165 wrote: Do you have any better pictures of the horn?

Yes, In fact, here's a closeup of the valves.
and the website where I found it with more great closeups of the horn, including a back view.
http://www.musikmuseet.se/samlingar/det ... d=525&str=" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

J.c. Sherman wrote:I believe that bore size is a little large; where did you get your data for bore, bell, height, etc?

Since every tuba was a bit different, I got a variety of data. I the resulting number I got for the bore is a rough average between several of my sources. For other info, I used the data from this later Moritz horn from the 'rugs-n-relics' website: http://www.rugs-n-relics.com/Brass/tuba ... -Tuba.html" target="_blank" target="_blank
as you'll see the bore on that one's even larger.

Also, thanks, everyone for the advice and the words of encouragement!