TubeNet

There are some fine players on this board who don't teach at all. One fellow in particular is a very good player, outstanding technician, and seems to be highly intelligent despite the nature of some of his posts (which are most likely done to "tweak the nose" of fellow tubenetters.) He has ofen cited the apathetic nature of many of today's students. I am coming to agree with him more and more.
Following are typical exchanges from lessons:
During the first exercise:
Me: "You didn't practice this, did you?"
Student: "No."
After pulling out a more interesting etude:
Me: "You didn't practice this either, did you?"
Student: "No."
Me: "Did you practice any this week?"
Student: "No."
Me: "I gave you some material to read at the beginning of this semester. Have you read it yet?"
Student: "No."
Me: "When are you going to read it?"
Student: "Some day."
Me: "I sent you an email this week. Did you read it?"
Student: "I saw that you sent an email, but I didn't read it."

Instructor: "This is your first lesson, ever?" (college)

Me: Yes

Instructor pulls out an etude, "Play this."

Me: "It goes up to middle C...I can't play that high!"

bloke wrote: I have an (admittedly controversial) theory that most who are truly determined to master performance and musicianship can do so without lessons.

I'm not in total argument with your controversial theory, but I'm not in total disagreement either.

My former teacher dropped out of university twice. (once on euphonium, once on tuba) He was/is a really great performer who has had a symphony job for over 30 years. Many of our lessons featured lots of discussions and digressions into topics not related to performance at all. Over the six years I studied with him, I probably had over 150 lessons. To his own admission, he could resume all his teaching points and explain all of his exercises in about an hour. He also stated that the 5 lessons he took with Jacobs were by far the most productive lessons and were the ones that put him on the right track.

I believe that students need a minimum of teaching. Even the truly motivated need some lessons. However, the course and structure of an undergraduate degree, which would lead a student to have almost 100 lessons over the course of 4 years is indeed quite likely to favour the type of passive "watching a television program" attitude that you describe.

I once had dinner with Jacobs (he never heard me play) and learned more than I got out of all my college applied lessons.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it practice its scales.

bloke wrote: bloke "fwiw, I learned a great deal of what I know about playing the tuba from sitting next to my extremely focused high school friend - whose goals were to marry his beautiful girlfriend and get accepted into a military band straight out of high school in order to avoid being sent to Vietnam...He accomplished both, and the Army put him in Pershing's Own."

He had more incentive than anybody does these days.

LJV wrote:I'm never personally offended because student doesn't practice. It's their choice/money, etc.

two things I tell pretty much every student that needs to hear it:

1. Everything's optional. every option has has it's own consequences, but everything's optional......

2. Don't bull$$$t a bull$$$tter. Been there, tried that, done most. Don't try and prove you can outsmart me with your mediocre attempts at playing assigned material. I see through your veiled attempts.

That said, as LJV said, it's their choice.......

Lactose?

You can teach without being a practitioner (but you risk becoming irrelevant)

You can practice without being a teacher (but your influence will be limited)

You can (try) to teach those who don't want to learn (but this does not work)

Or, you can practice your craft, offer instruction to those who will listen, and (most
important) consider it a success when an unmotivated student chooses to stop coming.

Your craft doesn't have to be music performance for this to be good advice...

Oh yeah...WORRYING about any of this is counter-productive. If you have knowledge, and minimal people skills, teaching can be rewarding - put it out there and see who responds.
Don't worry about the ones who don't get it. The few who do make up for all the time and effort. Over, and over again.

Teaching is about character, I understand that some do not have the "right stuff " as it were, and are not cut out for it or called to do it, however good they are
Teaching is about seeing the student as being more important than the teacher, I understand that some want to show off, and demonstrate their gifts rather than develop those gifts in others
Teaching is a journey with a student, I understand that some are more interested in results and get frustrated when they do not come quickly
Teaching is hard, and I understand why some can't or won't do it

Whoever "some" are, we should be glad that they are great players, and eternally grateful that they are not teachers. Not everybody who is skilled at particular activity have the skills or attributes to be a teacher of that activity, some have the honesty to realise that in themselves, and whilst I know that the failure of a learner to learn is not aways the failure of the teacher to teach, but it is a poor teacher who put all the blame on the students for those failures

peter birch wrote:Teaching is about character, I understand that some do not have the "right stuff " as it were, and are not cut out for it or called to do it, however good they are
Teaching is about seeing the student as being more important than the teacher, I understand that some want to show off, and demonstrate their gifts rather than develop those gifts in others
Teaching is a journey with a student, I understand that some are more interested in results and get frustrated when they do not come quickly
Teaching is hard, and I understand why some can't or won't do it

Learning is about character. I understand that some do not have the "right stuff " as it were, and are not cut out for it or called to do it, however good they are.
Learning is about seeing the teacher as being more experienced than the student. I understand that some want to show off, and demonstrate their gifts rather than develop those gifts in themselves.
Learning is a journey with a teacher. I understand that some are more interested in results and get frustrated when they do not come quickly.
Learning is hard, and I understand why some can't or won't do it.

Todd, that's perfect!

Not everyone can learn without instruction.

Not everyone will/can learn with instruction.

There are multiple learning personalities - to think that a one-size generic statement about learning is appropriate would be committing to folly.

I understand the intention of the post - which is more about student behavior and not learning ability. As a teacher I have had both types of students, it is inevitable. But not all students are like this, and many grow and develop into great people who come prepared. If we just gave up because a student began her time with with lessons "lazily" then I could think of MANY people who would have never had a shot. People grow. There are two types of teachers in my comments - teachers who teach for the skill/product and teachers who teach the PERSON.

Teaching, even in lessons, isn't just about the "product" of the task. It is often about the journey to help grow a person. Sometimes that means being an inspiration to help them grow out of the behavior that is listed in these comments as "lazy" or etc. Teachers who understand this are much better off and oftentimes happier. If your goal is to produce a fabulous tuba musician you will likely not enjoy teaching as these "good" students are few. If your goal is to be a teacher, first and foremost, and you accept the challenge of not just teaching "tuba", you may enjoy teaching much more.

I think it is one of the dangers of teaching today, versus what it was in years past. In today's politically correct society that is overly concerned with a student's self esteem, teaching sometimes loses its edge. Teachers will treat the student with greater care and even avoid telling students the real truth. In my experience, the opposite works best. Some of the best students I've had, who have gone on to major gigs, started off nearly failing with me. I have found that if I remain truthful to them and don't sugarcoat their shortcomings, the student either washes out or responds to the challenge and ends up creating truly remarkable improvement. Either outcome is okay, since most of the students that wash out come back later with a better attitude and a more realistic approach to their studies.

Nowadays, mentoring is the buzzword. I have been teaching this way for many decades and have always preferred the results. A student must understand how to learn before they can learn. Simply focusing on playing mechanics or musical ideas isn't enough for some students. One of the most infuriating experiences I ever had was taking a lesson with a very top shelf player/teacher who, when asked questions about how to go about fixing specific things in my playing, simply had no answer on how to proceed. Their response was to simply do it. That's great if you're already good at the task and it all seems to come naturally. Not being able to properly diagnose problems and propose suitable solutions embodies a teacher who really should stick to playing only.

I will say that I never expected to focus on teaching all that much. I understand the necessity of it, both economically and for artistic fulfillment, but it never occurred to me how important it would become to me personally. While the road is never smooth, the good parts have been extremely rewarding for me.

I got out of teaching in '74 mostly, I thought at the time, because of the same kind of crap from students and parents I have seen mentioned here. It was only after rising to middle management in the insurance business years later that I finally understood that I had to leave teaching and management for the same reason. I finally had to face the fact that I couldn't deal with caring more about my student's/agent's success than they did. I am now living happily ever after as a one man insurance shop with no employees. I don't want any. I can't handle that responsibility. Sorry folks, just can't do it. Interestingly enough I seem to have found my ideal mentoring position in music as a church orchestra leader. The responsibility has somehow shifted from my shoulders to those of a higher power. I still get disappointed from time to time but it doesn't hit me in the gut like it used to.

I don't teach tuba. I teach applied jazz piano, applied jazz bass, and a class of jazz improv.

I haven't yet (in three years) had an applied jazz piano student who bothers to practice the material I've given him.
I haven't yet (in three years) had an applied jazz bass student who bothers to practice the material I've given him.
I haven't yet (in three years) had a student in my jazz improv class bother to practice the material I've given them. Almost none of them can even be bothered to get in an 8 or 16 bar transcription assignment on time and follow instructions regarding including chord changes and analysis.

I'd be perfectly willing to admit that this problem with motivation is because of me, if I believed it was. I don't.

Good thread and some good posts. I taught music for 22 years, 17 of those years at Universities. I'm now in my 9th year of teaching yoga, so I'm coming at this from a different perspective entirely. If you are a professional or amateur musician, chances are you're going to teach. I know I never took a course in "how to teach", I was fortunate to have great teachers to model, until I eventually found my own voice. Having taught at the University level for so long, I came to the conclusion that most of the kids attending college shouldn't; they should wait until they're about 25 years old, give or take. Our society says that when we graduate from H.S. we then must go to college, not really knowing what it is we want to do with our lives. Now, this isn't true for every young adult, it's a general statement. We play a musical instrument in the high school band, it's fun, we have friends and we belong to something. It's only logical that we take it to the next level in college.

Too many people are in the wrong profession. If you have ever asked yourself, "is this it, is this my life, is this all there is?" then chances are you're in the wrong line of work. Okay, here's your first yoga word, "Dharma". It means purpose, truth and many other meanings, but you get the idea. Finding your purpose in life is not an easy thing to do. "Why am I here?" I play tuba in an orchestra and make money doing it, but that's not my dharma, playing tuba is not who I am, it's something I do. My dharma is to serve, and the best way I found to fulfill my dharma is to teach yoga. I know, it's kind of weird, but it's what I do and love. Don't confuse the word "yoga" with just the physical. I teach a lot of yoga philosophy and over the years, I've had a profound affect on many lives. Have you ever had a music student come in and tell you that what you said in class affected their lives so profoundly that they found the strength to ask for a divorce so they could get out of an abusive relationship? I have the great pleasure of helping people live better lives.

When I taught music, I saw a lot of teachers putting themselves first and their students second. They used their students to make themselves look good. This is desire, not dharma. We're essentially operating from either or. An example of desire would be, "what's in it for me?" Dharma would be, "what can I do to help?" There are basically three kinds of students in yoga, but also in music. The first is the athlete; they just want to do the physical yoga, work hard, probably show off, etc. These are the kids who aren't very interested in anything else. The second type is the scientist/engineer. These students want to know how to do the poses, or in music, I would say this is the theory of music. The last type is the poet/mystic. These students are interested in the philosophy and history. In music this would fall under history. Ideally we have to be all three, not only in yoga but also in music.

A great example of Dharma comes from Abraham Lincoln. If you haven't seen the movie, Go! Gene sounds amazing! Anyway, Lincoln fulfilled his dharma by freeing the slaves and saving the union. Talk about purpose. Finding your purpose in life and living it fully, no matter what anyone says about it will bring you happiness. We are all here for a reason and it's our jobs to find out what that reason is. If you're teaching just for the money, chances are you aren't very happy about it and it's not your dharma. If you're a student and you can't quite get it all together, take some time off and save your parents some hard earned money. If you're a teacher or a student of music, what else turns you on? Is your whole life and identity tied up in music? If music were taken away, who would you be? Okay, I'm done rambling on about dharma. These were just some Friday thoughts to share.
Ted

Also kids nowadays are used to having sports practices everyday. Even at the little league level. They generally do not practice their sport on their own outside of the team practice setting, unless perhaps they are a pitcher or some other type of athlete that requires a specific technique like a golfer perhaps, etc. So kids are not accustomed to working on their own. They are usually held by the hand and guided through routines at daily practices. So now we are asking the kid to actually do some work on his own...well, as most of you have experienced they have no idea how to do it, or no motivation to do it. I used to think it was a music thing until I talked to some coaches. Surprisingly, they experience much of the same thing with their players.

k

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:

peter birch wrote:Teaching is about character, I understand that some do not have the "right stuff " as it were, and are not cut out for it or called to do it, however good they are
Teaching is about seeing the student as being more important than the teacher, I understand that some want to show off, and demonstrate their gifts rather than develop those gifts in others
Teaching is a journey with a student, I understand that some are more interested in results and get frustrated when they do not come quickly
Teaching is hard, and I understand why some can't or won't do it

Learning is about character. I understand that some do not have the "right stuff " as it were, and are not cut out for it or called to do it, however good they are.
Learning is about seeing the teacher as being more experienced than the student. I understand that some want to show off, and demonstrate their gifts rather than develop those gifts in themselves.
Learning is a journey with a teacher. I understand that some are more interested in results and get frustrated when they do not come quickly.
Learning is hard, and I understand why some can't or won't do it.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it is perfectly acceptable and entirely reasonable that some very good people do not teach, and for very good reasons, Some have had bad experiences with students or the educational system that have put them off in a very profound way, and those people have my sympathy, but there are some who need to have the courage to admit that the reason they don't teach lies within themselves, and not the students.

People have said the many of the same things being said here about students since there have been students. In any program there is always a small number who are there because they are really motivated to learn and put in the work required to do so. There is some number who half a$$ it and just try to get through whatever program it is, and the rest who shouldn't be there and will never complete the course of study, whatever it is. The proportion in each category may have changed somewhat over the years, but I don't think that change in numbers is as dramatic as some think it is.

I work at a private university, so very little of the money being wasted by students who shouldn't be there is government money, but much of it is undoubtedly their parent's money. There does seem to be more of a push to have students complete a 4 year college degree when many of them would probably be better off doing an apprenticeship or learning a trade some other way, but at least at our school I don't find a large percentage in that category. I do find that the 15-30% of each class who are really motivated, do all their work, and participate in all classes and activities make the job worthwhile. As others have said in so many words, learning is a two way street. An instructor cannot do anything if a student isn't willing to put in the effort. After spending way too much time trying to bring those students around and get them involved early in my teaching career, I have reconciled the fact that if they don't get there there's nothing I can do about it.