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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby cjk » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:05 pm

TubaTinker wrote:Does anyone know the whereabouts of the Martin CC that Bill Bell is playing is this picture?
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This rotary Martin really looks like a large Martin Eb body with enough extra tubing (loooong leadpipe)d to drop the pitch to CC. The funky valve section looks odd.
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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby Stryk » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:45 am

cjk wrote:This rotary Martin really looks like a large Martin Eb body with enough extra tubing (loooong leadpipe)d to drop the pitch to CC. The funky valve section looks odd.


I was on a real mission to find this horn - spoke to Mr. Oliver and Mr. Hammond and reached a real dead end as the buyer was unknown. I have a personal connection to this horn. Earle Louder was working on his doctorate at FSU when I was a freshman in the mid 70s and had borrowed this horn from Mr. Oliver. I was able to play it for a while and fell in love with it. It is indeed a Martin. I fear it has become scrap or has been locked in someone's attic as it was in pretty rough shape 40 years ago. I is easily identifiable as it has (or had) a post soldered to the bottom bow with a crutch tip on it which sat on the players chair as a primitive but effective way to raise the horn up to playing level.
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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby KiltieTuba » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:42 am

Off topic, but the Alexander looks real nice in that picture!
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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby Stryk » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:33 pm

KiltieTuba wrote:Off topic, but the Alexander looks real nice in that picture!

Wonder if it is an F - looks small for a 163. I think they did make a 3/4 size at one point, tho.
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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby tuben » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:49 pm

Stryk wrote:
KiltieTuba wrote:Off topic, but the Alexander looks real nice in that picture!

Wonder if it is an F - looks small for a 163. I think they did make a 3/4 size at one point, tho.


It is absolutely a 163CC, not a 155F or 157F. Notice it is taller than the King Symphony.
I own a 155F and they are 'small'.

The 155CC (which is the 3/4 CC you are referring to), are remarkably rare.
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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby Alex C » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:58 pm

James Linn's rotary valve King in the picture has an interesting history. I have the story second hand, Bell told him the King tubas need to have 4 inches taken off the bell, meaning 4 inches off of the diameter. Linn's repairman took 4 inches off of the bell at the tenon. You'll notice in the picture how short the bell appears.

Like I said, second hand.
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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby Stryk » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:10 pm

tuben wrote:
It is absolutely a 163CC, not a 155F or 157F. Notice it is taller than the King Symphony.
I own a 155F and they are 'small'.

The 155CC (which is the 3/4 CC you are referring to), are remarkably rare.


It just struck me as being smaller. I am sure you are correct. :tuba:
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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby Lee Stofer » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:24 pm

It has been speculated that the unknown player with the unknown tuba in the far upper right of the photo was playing an Alex 164 kaiser, but I'm not convinced. I think that I can see bell screws, making me think that it is a rare King 1291 large rotary BBb with the upright bell. Only a very few upright bells were made, and they were tall.
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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby bububassboner » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:14 pm

Lee Stofer wrote:It has been speculated that the unknown player with the unknown tuba in the far upper right of the photo was playing an Alex 164 kaiser, but I'm not convinced. I think that I can see bell screws, making me think that it is a rare King 1291 large rotary BBb with the upright bell. Only a very few upright bells were made, and they were tall.


Alexander has in the past made removable bell tubas. I have seen one with a front facing bell but have never seen one with an upright bell. Just a thought.
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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby bort » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:38 pm

Here's an Alex 163 BBb with a detachable bell. It sold here several years ago.

http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=42712&hilit=alex+detachable

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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby Dan Schultz » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:44 pm

bort wrote:Here's an Alex 163 BBb with a detachable bell. It sold here several years ago....


Interesting. However... it might be an illusion but the bell stem appears smaller in diameter than the bell stack.
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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby Mikelynch » Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:05 pm

I wouldn't want to bet heavily against Lee's judgement; but FWIW, the back horn sure looks to me to have the contours of an Alex 164 BBb. I used to have one with a detachable upright bell (and I know of one other one). I can send a picture tomorrow of one of the big King BBb's to compare.

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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby Stryk » Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:00 pm

Bumping this to see if anyone might have any idea where this is. I reached a dead end after following it as far as Arizona. LB sold it to Ivan Hammond a few years ago, who sold it shortly thereafter to someone he can't recall from the southwest. Sigh. :tuba:
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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby lost » Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:28 pm

*
Last edited by lost on Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby Lee Stofer » Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:51 pm

The more that I look at the BART in the upper right-hand corner of the photo, the more I see. There is a very small-radius 1st slide crook, and there is just enough of the lower tubing visible to see that the 3rd slide tubing went to a lower 3rd slide on the front, both consistent with a King 1291 rotor BBb. John Taylor has told me of going on tour with the CSO and Mr. Jacobs as the 2nd tubist, and on tour they met with someone in New York that had one of these horns for sale. Mr. Taylor said it was a marvelous-playing instrument, except that the long upright bell made it a little flat.
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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby bloke » Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:56 pm

warning! nearly off topic:

I've sometimes wondered about the low-slung mouthpipes on adapted-from-fix-bell-designs old detachable-bell tubas...

Assuming ADULT ownership and gentle handling, maybe it would (have been) a good idea to have installed one or two vertical braces from the female collar with the mouthpipe suspended (via those braces) hovering above the female collar in a more normal position.
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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby Art Hovey » Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:41 pm

Assuming ADULT ownership and gentle handling, maybe it would (have been) a good idea to have installed one or two vertical braces from the female collar with the mouthpipe suspended (via those braces) hovering above the female collar in a more normal position.


I think Bloke is referring to something like this:

RaisedLeadpipeOnMartin.jpg
RaisedLeadpipeOnMartin.jpg (72.86 KiB) Viewed 2541 times



I have been using it for about 16 years, as an adult, and recently made some changes to accommodate senior citizenship.
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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby Tom Coffey » Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:10 pm

There is a used 4 valve BBb King Rotary on the Baltimore Brass site right now, with an upright bell. I have seen that horn in the store, and I think it is a 1291 with the upright bell. It is, indeed, a very tall, large horn.
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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby Stryk » Tue May 17, 2016 8:42 am

I am still looking for this horn. If anyone has some more clues, it would be appreciated. I followed the trail to somewhere in Arizona, then it seem to have disappeared. I have somewhat of a connection to this horn, and although I would love to own it, I at least want to know that the person who owns it now knows the historical significance of it.
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Re: Bill Bell's Martin CC (actually LB Olivers horn)

Postby Stryk » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:55 pm

Bump for the new folks that may know something!
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