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I have been asked to order two mouthpieces for our very aged and brittle school Euphoniums. One is a medium shank Boosey+Hawkes, one is a large shank Besson Imperial.

The students playing them are almost always beginners in a brass tech setting. Usually education students whom major on another instrument. (sax, piano, clarinet, horn). You know the drill.

Its been a while since I took a peek at the mouthpiece market. The prof wants something very standard and easy to learn on.

Bach 6 1/2 AL rang a bell
so did Schilke 51.

Am I way off? recommendations?

Thanks.

Just want to make sure before I F*** it up

If it were me, I'd get two Kelly 51Ds -- they charge the same for medium shank as for large (I have one of their small shank 51Ds, and it works well for me). Schilke medium shank 51Ds are available, but they charge a lot more for them than for the large or small shank versions.

The 51D is a good choice but for a non-euphonium player the 6 1/2 AL might be easier to play as it requires less air.

Personally, I think a Bach 5G might be a tad nicer than a 6.5AL for a euphonium. It is still not too big for most people and would allow people to potentially develop a nicer fuller sound. I prefer the 52E2 to the 51D but the 51D is a fine mouthpiece and would probably be suitable for more people.*

You might also want to look at the Denis Wick 4AM (which is available in both shanks). The 4AM works well on Besson horns and seems to be the standard with these horns.


*I'm a relatively bigger guy and prefer mouthpieces to be on the large side of things. I usually play with a MF PS Solo. I occasionally play with a Yamaha 54.

Look at the Schilke 50, which I believe comes in both shank sizes, for school players: deep enough to get good mellow tone, but not so deep, nor so large in the throat, that they take too much air. I have a friend who plays a Schilke 50 through a Jupiter student euph for community band that is about as good a match as it gets.

6.5 AL is a pretty common size for Euphonium players in early and intermediate stages. Big enough to get good tone, but not too big that it's hard to play. Shilke 50 is equivalent in size, both the Bach and Shilke sizes are available in both shank sizes.

Note that these "students" are all adult , university musicians.

Would this suggest that they would be better off with a 5G, or is the 6.5 AL still sufficient in size? Im looking for something that isn't too big for someone who has almost never played a brass instrument,but has the skull of a grown person Medium deep is ideal. Not too hot, not too cold

Again, these horns aren't playing much more than a couple scales, and twinkle twinkle little star. Something for future-teachers to be able to learn quickly so they can emulate the proper sound to their students.

I appreciate the input,

Kevin

Radar wrote:6.5 AL is a pretty common size for Euphonium players in early and intermediate stages. Big enough to get good tone, but not too big that it's hard to play. Shilke 50 is equivalent in size, both the Bach and Shilke sizes are available in both shank sizes.

When you say "both shank sizes", be aware that the two sizes under discussion are *not* tenor and bass 'bone, but European euphonium and bass 'bone.

I took a quick look online earlier -- didn't see Bach medium shank advertised. Small (tenor) and large (bass), yes, but not the European euphonium (medium) shank. Schilke does make their line in medium shank, but they're a *lot* more expensive: Mouthpiece Express lists the small and large shank Schilkes at $64, and the medium shank (which they consider a "special order" item) at $106.

XtremeEuph wrote:Again, these horns aren't playing much more than a couple scales, and twinkle twinkle little star. Something for future-teachers to be able to learn quickly so they can emulate the proper sound to their students.

In the euphonium world at least, a 6 1/2AL is typically a step-up mouthpiece for intermediate level middle/high school students. If "emulating the proper sound" is a primary criterion, a 5G (or a Wick 4.5AL or 5AL or a Yamaha 52) than a 6 1/2AL, which is at the extreme small, shallow, and bright ends of the spectrum of what these days is generally considered to be the "ideal" euphonium sound.

Medium shank mouthpieces are few and far between, and what few there are tend to be expensive. It may end up being cheaper to have the receiver on the B&H changed to a large shank and buy two large shank mpcs.

I vote for the Kelly 5G. Especially Kelly because, not being brass players, they will not know if they have a problem with metal allergy, and the Kelly will not only prevent that problem but they are cheap if someone loses one, and don't dent the bell when you drop them. It comes in both Euro and standard shank, last I looked.
MA

pgym wrote:
Medium shank mouthpieces are few and far between, and what few there are tend to be expensive. It may end up being cheaper to have the receiver on the B&H changed to a large shank and buy two large shank mpcs.

Agreed with the rest of what you said.

The most affordable medium shank mouthpiece readily available in a store seems to Denis Wick 4AM. The price on Mouthpiece Express is less than a Bach 5G. ($61.99 vs $63.99)
________
One Caveat: Make sure the person at the music store taking the order is not an idiot and doesn't think that by European or medium shank you actually mean small shank. It's sorta happened to me before...

XtremeEuph wrote:Note that these "students" are all adult , university musicians.

Yes. So is my community band friend.

PMeuph wrote:

pgym wrote:
Medium shank mouthpieces are few and far between, and what few there are tend to be expensive. It may end up being cheaper to have the receiver on the B&H changed to a large shank and buy two large shank mpcs.

Agreed with the rest of what you said.

The most affordable medium shank mouthpiece readily available in a store seems to Denis Wick 4AM. The price on Mouthpiece Express is less than a Bach 5G. ($61.99 vs $63.99)

Only if you're allergic to Lexan -- the Kellys are $27 if ordered direct from the manufacturer, or $25 at WWBW.

Most of these replies are way off -- 5g, 6.5al, schilke 50, schilke 51 are all WAY too small for the instruments you mentioned unless the player has an extremely dark natural embouchure. Wick 4AL (large shank) or 4AM (euro shank) would be the classic choices for those instruments. Schilke 51D (or a clone) is a little smaller in diameter and a little deeper, and is the more standard american (bowman) school of playing choice. You could also look at the DEG BB1 which is a lot like the 51D. You could also look at one of the Wick SM or SM Ultra series in the player's choice of size.

bbocaner wrote:Most of these replies are way off -- 5g, 6.5al, schilke 50, schilke 51 are all WAY too small for the instruments you mentioned unless the player has an extremely dark natural embouchure. Wick 4AL (large shank) or 4AM (euro shank) would be the classic choices for those instruments.

Except he's not asking about "classic choices" for intermediate or advanced euphonium players, he's asking about appropriate choices for non-euphonium players whose SOLE interest and need is to be able to play a few scales and simple tunes in a classroom setting:

XtremeEuph wrote: Im looking for something that isn't too big for someone who has almost never played a brass instrument,but has the skull of a grown person Medium deep is ideal. Not too hot, not too cold

That makes the Wick 4 a singularly inappropriate recommendation for its intended user group and purpose.

And, for the record, some "hack" you probably never heard of named Dave Werden recommends the 5G to experienced euph players transitioning from 6 1/2AL to a Wick 4:

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread ... post106889" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread ... ition-plan" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread ... post109473" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread ... outhpieces" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread ... 37-UNIQUE-(no-seriously" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank)-problem-with-mouthpiece-pressure?p=101945&viewfull=1#post101945

Bach 5G Bass Trombone Mouthpiece - If you are not ready for the larger 4G or Wick 4AL, this is a fine moutpiece. It is an especially nice step-up mouthpiece for players who have been using a 6-1/2, which is pretty popular.

Actually, I have played both 5G and 4G on euphonium. I used the 5G for a while many years ago. [snip] I now use a Wick 4AL, but I find it pretty close to the 4G and have recommended the 4G as a mouthpiece that people should try if they have enough strength to go larger than a 6-1/2 or 5.

Oh ... and also for the record, the diameter and depth between the 5G are virtually identical to those of the BB1 and 51D.

bbocaner wrote:Most of these replies are way off -- 5g, 6.5al, schilke 50, schilke 51 are all WAY too small for the instruments you mentioned unless the player has an extremely dark natural embouchure. Wick 4AL (large shank) or 4AM (euro shank) would be the classic choices for those instruments. Schilke 51D (or a clone) is a little smaller in diameter and a little deeper, and is the more standard american (bowman) school of playing choice. You could also look at the DEG BB1 which is a lot like the 51D. You could also look at one of the Wick SM or SM Ultra series in the player's choice of size.

If you've taken a brass methods class, or two (Or know someone who has) you'll realize that at best in these course you spend 6 weeks learning each instrument or in the worst of cases you spend 3 weeks.

In that time frame, your claim to "are all way too small" is frivolous at best. I doubt that students will have enough precision and control to reap the benefits that a larger mouthpiece might offer.

Your recommendations are not bad, but I doubt they are the most practical in this thread. One of the added benefits of buying a Bach 5g is that the teacher will have a clear idea of what an upgrade from the generic 6 1/2AL might be if one of his students decides to switch later on. A 5G is a very "play it safe" type of mouthpiece and I have seen it used on many different makes of horns without any issues.

For the record, I played an Imperial from three years and own a 3 valve compensator. I have used a Willson TA1 (Similar to a 5G) without any problems..
The mouthpieces

Kevin Hendrick wrote:
Only if you're allergic to Lexan -- the Kellys are $27 if ordered direct from the manufacturer, or $25 at WWBW.

True. I like the Kellys, I own more than I should. I have used them quite a bit. However, for several reasons I would shy away from recommending them to "band directors in training."

1. I feel that the pitch is much less stable on a Kelly. For a player with no or a weak embouchure the results might not be satisfactory.
2. The tone offers much more flexibility on a Kelly.
3. Kellys make great second mouthpieces, I would not want a Kelly to be the only mouthpiece in my drawer. I just don't feel it gives me the sound that I really want.

Kevin Hendrick wrote:

Radar wrote:6.5 AL is a pretty common size for Euphonium players in early and intermediate stages. Big enough to get good tone, but not too big that it's hard to play. Shilke 50 is equivalent in size, both the Bach and Shilke sizes are available in both shank sizes.

When you say "both shank sizes", be aware that the two sizes under discussion are *not* tenor and bass 'bone, but European euphonium and bass 'bone.

I took a quick look online earlier -- didn't see Bach medium shank advertised. Small (tenor) and large (bass), yes, but not the European euphonium (medium) shank. Schilke does make their line in medium shank, but they're a *lot* more expensive: Mouthpiece Express lists the small and large shank Schilkes at $64, and the medium shank (which they consider a "special order" item) at $106.

You are correct I was referring to Tenor and Base bone shank I didn't realize that one of these instruments was the European Medium shank variety, they are much more expensive but can be ordered on-line. I would still recommend the 6.5AL or Shilke 50 Rim and Cup dimensions for the players discribed in this thread.

First, I apologize, I skimmed the thread and did not realize this was for beginners. Second, I stand by my assertion that the Bach mouthpieces are not good choices. There may be some outlying players for which they work, but this is rare. True that the 51d and 5g have a very close rim diameter, but the depth, cup shape, backbore, and throat are very different. They are intended as trombone mouthpieces and for most players are too bright. To wit, on a 5g my thumb will go in to about the first line after my nail. On a 51d it goes in almost completely past my knuckle. Huge difference. Also, the Willson TA1 is a straight 51d copy.

So, yes.... 4al/4am are completely out. 51d might work a little better. Might I suggest the deg bb2 or bb3 which are intended for modern euphoniums specifically for beginning players?

tstryk wrote:

bbocaner wrote:
Well - if this is so, one of the most outstanding euphonium players in the world uses a mp that is way too small - 6 1/2 AL

Who's that?